The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Because no one else is doing it--not even the media.
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Strelnikov
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The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by Strelnikov » Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:55 pm



Above is Australian YouTuber "BadEmpanada" (Yannis Stanopoulos) taking down this crap article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... e_question . Everything about how Wikipedia deals with sources is taken to pieces by the guy. He also deals with the sources within the article.
Still "Globally Banned" on Wikipedia for the high crime of journalism.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by ericbarbour » Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:55 am

That is a good video and goes into considerable detail on the content. But you can't talk about Wikipedia content without bringing up the Wikipedians who have been fucking with the content. Major editors of that article include:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... owjiahfguh
I suspect this freak came over from RationalWiki. Because he/she/? spent literal YEARS fiddling with the RationalWiki article. Then in 2019 switched to grinding the Holodomor question article. And came down on the not-a-genocide side on average.

Then we have Mzajac, a very early administrator (2005). Who openly admits being a Ukrainian who lives in Canada, and who has been whining on WP that the world hates the poor Ukrainians -- since 2004. Probably this guy. I had not mentioned him on the book wiki, not even in the Ukraine editwar article, because he keeps a generally low profile on WMF sites. Perhaps I should add him?

And there is "Anteosaurus magnificus", a total raving looney. Loves dinosaurs, bitching about Italian fascism, and accusing public figures of being "genocide deniers". Sockpuppet of someone important. (Chomsky is always a regular "target" for political cranks of all sorts.)

Stanapoulos really should have mentioned the recent banning of the Daily Mail as a "reliable source", since it was a massive abuse of the "system" and gave the lie to much of what WP:RS says.

Furthermore I wish I could get Stanopoulos a copy of the book wiki. Imagine the coronary he would have from reading THAT stuff.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by badmachine » Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:18 am

ericbarbour wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:55 am
That is a good video and goes into considerable detail on the content. But you can't talk about Wikipedia content without bringing up the Wikipedians who have been fucking with the content. Major editors of that article include:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... owjiahfguh
I suspect this freak came over from RationalWiki. Because he/she/? spent literal YEARS fiddling with the RationalWiki article. Then in 2019 switched to grinding the Holodomor question article. And came down on the not-a-genocide side on average.
curprev 08:08, 27 April 2021‎ Cabayi talk contribs‎ m 28,108 bytes 0‎ Cabayi moved page User talk:FuzzyCatPotato/RationalWiki to User talk:Hnedrfrieowjiahfguh/RationalWiki: Automatically moved page while renaming the user "FuzzyCatPotato" to "Hnedrfrieowjiahfguh" undo
looks like FuzzyCatPotato did edit at rat wiki beginning in 2013, about two years after signing up at wikipedia

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by ericbarbour » Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:29 am

badmachine wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:18 am
looks like FuzzyCatPotato did edit at rat wiki beginning in 2013, about two years after signing up at wikipedia
ah, thanks for catching the name change. FCP was mentioned in the book wiki.
The present RW article shows its first edit in April 2010. It was expanded greatly in June 2010 13 by
Wikimedia India principal Vipul Naik. Thereafter, the primary author is "FuzzyCatPotato 14 ", a totally
anonymous person who openly claims 15 to be a director of the RationalMedia Foundation and a high-
ranking RW sysop. And yet, sometimes denies 16 being an "official RW spokesman". This is a classic
example of COI abuse being tolerated by Wikipedia administrators, because someone wants it to
happen. From 2015 on, FCP and other obscure WP accounts, especially conservative WP editor/addict
Rothorpe 17 , fought over the content.
Further attempts to blank or delete the article were treated as simple vandalism. Thanks to heavy
editwarring and the silent involvement by high-ranking WP insiders, the edit history of this article
probably cannot be trusted to be "accurate" or complete.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by SkepticalHistorian » Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:47 am

Recently argued with my sister about this in emails. I cited Walter Duranty’s article:
RUSSIANS HUNGRY, BUT NOT STARVING; Deaths From Diseases Due to Malnutrition High, Yet the Soviet Is Entrenched. LARGER CITIES HAVE FOOD Ukraine, North Caucasus and Lower Volga Regions Suffer From Shortages. KREMLIN'S 'DOOM' DENIED Russians and Foreign Observers In Country See No Ground for Predictions of Disaster.

By Walter Duranty.special Cable To the New York Times.
March 31, 1933

[all CAPS in original]

https://www.nytimes.com/1933/03/31/arch ... ue-to.html
Sent her the link to this video.

The WP article’s Talk Page has lengthy discussion of this video.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by ericbarbour » Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 am

SkepticalHistorian wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:47 am
The WP article’s Talk Page has lengthy discussion of this video.
Which is good. But it won't influence some of those people. This is typical for WP insider pool: reduce things to a Godwin's Law dichotomy (we hate this whatever-it-is because HITLERHITLERHITLER, and if you don't agree you are a Hitler too). It does NOT lead to good or reliable content. The USSR killed a LOT of people and not all of them were "intentional and official policy". It was a corrupt monster of a government, usually run by arrogant men who didn't care if some peasants starved, or if they'd have to order soldiers to gun people down "to maintain public peace". "Well, it can't be helped." Stalin was the worst but Lenin, Khruschev, Brezhnev and Andropov had their share of "purging". Nor did they much care if their own subordinates, Beria and Yezhov being the most notorious but not the only ones, got their rocks off torturing and killing people. And then used their political power to cover it up.

Life has always been cheap in central Eurasia, going back thousands of years. The Mongol Khanate murdered millions of peasants in northern China and across the continent all the way to the Danube. Some historians have been saying that killing some of those people may have been "humane", intentionally or not: parts of Eurasia were suffering from overpopulation and malnutrition already. One reason why classic feudalism is a terrible way to run a society. After Kublai Khan died the khanate's leaders were usually busy murdering each other. The starvation continued. "Intentional" is a loaded word here.

Don't ask me about northern India between the fall of the Indus River clvilization and the arrival of European invaders. You might not believe it.

I have to think that people who talk like the following are too sheltered and don't really understand the frequent ugliness of human existence. Didn't pay attention during history classes, or were fed garbage by their teachers.
If the deliberate killing of three million people can be called technically not genocide, then perhaps the word "genocide" needs to be redefined. Serendipodous 18:07, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
Holodomor was genocide. Why are we allowing political agitprop to masquerade as encyclopedic content? 142.160.101.97 (talk) 01:47, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
The squabbling on this talkpage will go on for a while and eventually everyone will give up and leave a long, broken mess.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by Dysklyver » Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:49 pm

ericbarbour wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:29 am
badmachine wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:18 am
looks like FuzzyCatPotato did edit at rat wiki beginning in 2013, about two years after signing up at wikipedia
ah, thanks for catching the name change. FCP was mentioned in the book wiki.
....Thereafter, the primary author is "FuzzyCatPotato 14 ", a totally anonymous person who openly claims 15 to be a director of the RationalMedia Foundation and a high-ranking RW sysop....
FCP. It has been a while since this passage of your book notes was written. Today, all the directors of RationalWiki are publicly listed. FCP's screenname on IRC is Aidan. Therefore, the "totally anonymous person" becomes Aidan Bissell-Siders.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by ericbarbour » Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:34 am

Dysklyver wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:49 pm
FCP. It has been a while since this passage of your book notes was written. Today, all the directors of RationalWiki are publicly listed. FCP's screenname on IRC is Aidan. Therefore, the "totally anonymous person" becomes Aidan Bissell-Siders.
Thanks--making a note. I had not seen that "RationalWiki Foundation" registration before, and I looked hard. Maybe they're finally becoming "serious" about whatever the hell RationalWiki is supposed to be....especially if Gerard has been sidelined.

PS: I recognize some of those names as people (?) who have editwarred on Wikipedia in years past.

And BTW: I don't think "Alessandra Lockhart" is a real person. Googling shows that name is from a character in a role-playing game. THIS is exactly the kind of stupid shit I would expect Toulouse and Gerard to pull. You could always contact the New Mexico Corporation Commission and tell them RationalWiki Foundation filed a bogus incorporation document. Good luck.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by NC1234567 » Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:21 pm

ericbarbour wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 am
This is typical for WP insider pool: reduce things to a Godwin's Law dichotomy (we hate this whatever-it-is because HITLERHITLERHITLER, and if you don't agree you are a Hitler too). It does NOT lead to good or reliable content. The USSR killed a LOT of people and not all of them were "intentional and official policy". It was a corrupt monster of a government, usually run by arrogant men who didn't care if some peasants starved, or if they'd have to order soldiers to gun people down "to maintain public peace". "Well, it can't be helped." Stalin was the worst but Lenin, Khruschev, Brezhnev and Andropov had their share of "purging". Nor did they much care if their own subordinates, Beria and Yezhov being the most notorious but not the only ones, got their rocks off torturing and killing people. And then used their political power to cover it up.
You are being sarcastic about the USSR, right? You are just imitating what those capitalist idiots say, right?
ericbarbour wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:10 am
I have to think that people who talk like the following are too sheltered and don't really understand the frequent ugliness of human existence. Didn't pay attention during history classes, or were fed garbage by their teachers.
The first part of that sentence sounds alarmingly misanthropic and nihilistic, I hope you aren’t actually like that.

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Re: The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You

Post by ericbarbour » Sat Sep 09, 2023 7:14 pm

NC1234567 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:21 pm
You are being sarcastic about the USSR, right? You are just imitating what those capitalist idiots say, right?
No, and are YOU being sarcastic?
The first part of that sentence sounds alarmingly misanthropic and nihilistic, I hope you aren’t actually like that.
Again hoping you are joking around

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