Even after FRAMBAN, ArbCom has now twice explicitly rejected the idea there would be any use in holding a Case to examine Fram's conduct, even if the outcome is moot. They literally could not be making it more obvious they think they screwed up, and want everyone to just forget about it.
I will say again, at the end of his ban, Fram will be reapplying to be an Administrator, and he will absolutely rat fuck anyone who tries to stop him if they don't have a signed order from ArbCom saying that he is unfit to serve.
They have made this mistake once already. For a body charged with examining Administrators where there are clear and obvious reasons to suspect they are unfit, to not do so, that counts as an action. Any future attempt to claim Fram's restoration as an Administrator was not their decision, if for example he simply returns to duty and is the same old Fram, if not more of an ass due to his perceived mistreat, will be implausible. Indefensible even.
Fram
Re: Fram
Seems to be no appetite in the community to view the assorted resignations as anything other than personal matters of conscience, if the fact the two new recruits pushed forward for Adminship to replace them getting heavy support and little pushback is any indicator.
Just more proof of the truism. It's Wikipedia. You are replaceable. You will be replaced.
Just more proof of the truism. It's Wikipedia. You are replaceable. You will be replaced.
Re: Fram
https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... 493#p10493
ArbCom literally doing anything and everything they can to ensure their role in FRAMBAN is not revealed to the wider world, much less the community. Up to and including cynically seizing on the opportunity presented by the Separatists to, um, investigate the community newsletter for harassment of their martyred useful idiot. I guess if you can't completely keep a lid on it, you can at least ensure it is not widely distributed.
Just another in a long list of things about this whole controversy that really shows the community doesn't want Wikipedia to be run along any lines that a truly democratic society would recognise. Separation of powers, freedom of the press, even basic free speech (with it's attendant balancing rights). They just want to replace a foreign power with their own local politburo.
Do the community even remember that the only reason the Committee was reduced to twelve was because of the dearth of suitable candidates? A situation that in 2017 saw only eight viable candidates for the eight seats being vacated?
The very idea ArbCom derives its authority from an electoral contest is a sham. Give it a few years, and to resolve the communication and coordination and basic efficacy issues exposed by their bungling of FRAMBAN, the Committee will have been reduced in size to two. A Comrade Chairman, and a Comrade Deputy Chairman to man the red button when the boss is on his travels to foreign lands. Such as to SanFrancisco, or WikiMania.
And I say man quite deliberately, for even if Opabina manages to eliminate enough rivals to ascend to the Iron PortaPotty, her gender traitor insticts are what will guide her hand on the levers of production.
The proposed direction of a community ruled by GorillaWarfare might be interesting, if the infighting among the troll factions meant she slipped through as the progressive's candidate. But I fear that would simply lead to a period of Roman style succession.
All interesting stuff, maybe fodder for future SignPost think pieces, although obviously only if it too can gain its independence. Could call it the The Federalist column.
ArbCom literally doing anything and everything they can to ensure their role in FRAMBAN is not revealed to the wider world, much less the community. Up to and including cynically seizing on the opportunity presented by the Separatists to, um, investigate the community newsletter for harassment of their martyred useful idiot. I guess if you can't completely keep a lid on it, you can at least ensure it is not widely distributed.
Just another in a long list of things about this whole controversy that really shows the community doesn't want Wikipedia to be run along any lines that a truly democratic society would recognise. Separation of powers, freedom of the press, even basic free speech (with it's attendant balancing rights). They just want to replace a foreign power with their own local politburo.
Do the community even remember that the only reason the Committee was reduced to twelve was because of the dearth of suitable candidates? A situation that in 2017 saw only eight viable candidates for the eight seats being vacated?
The very idea ArbCom derives its authority from an electoral contest is a sham. Give it a few years, and to resolve the communication and coordination and basic efficacy issues exposed by their bungling of FRAMBAN, the Committee will have been reduced in size to two. A Comrade Chairman, and a Comrade Deputy Chairman to man the red button when the boss is on his travels to foreign lands. Such as to SanFrancisco, or WikiMania.
And I say man quite deliberately, for even if Opabina manages to eliminate enough rivals to ascend to the Iron PortaPotty, her gender traitor insticts are what will guide her hand on the levers of production.
The proposed direction of a community ruled by GorillaWarfare might be interesting, if the infighting among the troll factions meant she slipped through as the progressive's candidate. But I fear that would simply lead to a period of Roman style succession.
All interesting stuff, maybe fodder for future SignPost think pieces, although obviously only if it too can gain its independence. Could call it the The Federalist column.
Re: Fram
The money shot.....
You've never had any difficulties with blocking novice users for multiple rude comments in defiance of advice and then warnings. It is only mildly more difficult to spot novice users doing so in a way that constitutes WP:HARASSment. If it were difficult, few of your pool of Administrators would be doing it at all, right? As per the chronic backlogs in your other difficult work areas where getting shit done requires real skill and judgement.
There's a questionable amount of good faith and effort to reform offenders in these cases, related to your toxic community's general attitude to sharing the sandpit with newcomers who have not shown total reverence for the Bigger Boys, but that is a whole other issue to this. Mostly.
The issue the Foundation has is obviously in how and why your supposedly autonomous community never saw the same issues with powerful users like Fram, or not enough did, much less found an effective way to stop it. Or rather, the will to stop it in the face of a clear desire of many in the toxic community that rather than disapproving of it, they actually quite like it.
FRAMBAN happened because that is a truism.....We do as good a job with harassment as we do with other TOU violations...... Risker (talk) 17:50, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Absolutely. And of the hundreds that are, a significant proportion would look like absolute travesties of justice, if we are to seriously believe all Fram did was harsh but fair policy enforcement.I think everyone, Arbcom included, is losing sight of the fact that the English Wikipedia community *does* in fact address harassment on a daily basis in a way that protects the project and the individuals being harassed. There are literally hundreds of blocks a month for harassment, even if they aren't labeled as such......
You've never had any difficulties with blocking novice users for multiple rude comments in defiance of advice and then warnings. It is only mildly more difficult to spot novice users doing so in a way that constitutes WP:HARASSment. If it were difficult, few of your pool of Administrators would be doing it at all, right? As per the chronic backlogs in your other difficult work areas where getting shit done requires real skill and judgement.
There's a questionable amount of good faith and effort to reform offenders in these cases, related to your toxic community's general attitude to sharing the sandpit with newcomers who have not shown total reverence for the Bigger Boys, but that is a whole other issue to this. Mostly.
The issue the Foundation has is obviously in how and why your supposedly autonomous community never saw the same issues with powerful users like Fram, or not enough did, much less found an effective way to stop it. Or rather, the will to stop it in the face of a clear desire of many in the toxic community that rather than disapproving of it, they actually quite like it.
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Graaf Statler
- Side Troll
- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm
Re: Fram
Well, I think Vigilant gave here the answer:
His claim is if someone is a productive user it doesn't matter he is a dick from time to time. (Correct me if I am wrong, Vig.)
And exact this makes wikipedia so extreme toxic. The people who keep Wikipedia floating are free to do what they want because of this. For instance Drmies can be a jerk as much as he want, everything he does is forgiven him. If you are a productive user you can be a asshole as much as you want.
Fram can be a dick, but he's scut work that nobody else wants to do.
He's not even in my top 100 of people who need to be shown the door.
His claim is if someone is a productive user it doesn't matter he is a dick from time to time. (Correct me if I am wrong, Vig.)
And exact this makes wikipedia so extreme toxic. The people who keep Wikipedia floating are free to do what they want because of this. For instance Drmies can be a jerk as much as he want, everything he does is forgiven him. If you are a productive user you can be a asshole as much as you want.
Last edited by Graaf Statler on Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Fram
Poor Jimmy. His eternal optimism just sentences him to a lifetime of disappointment.....
The Administrators retiring, such as Dennis Brown, their total and utter contempt for the other side comes through loud and clear. No Board Member worth their seat would fail to see there are no upsides as regards the strategic goals and indeed basic survival of their Foundation to taking seriously anything that even the supposedly "good" elements of the community purports to believe and want.
Who in the community is even bothering to put themselves forward as a reasonable negotiator with remotely viable proposals? Nobody. Their idea of good negotiating, is to bang the table and leave, and berate you lot for not immediately surrendering. As befits their world view and general experience with life, they seem to think this is some crappy Star Trek plot, where they are the morally superior Federation and the Foundation are evil Cardassians, who will only respect overt displays of strength.
Can you help us make and run a noticeboard on en.wiki that lets us know about anything that is going to frighten us? The fuck is that bullshit? Do it yourself, you whiny little bitches. That's the very definition of what an autonomous and self-governing community with pre-existing liaison channels at the highest levels, can and should be doing for itself.
Can you please help us understand what you mean by harassment so we don't make you mad and do things to us that we have to burn this place down over? The fuck is that bullshit? The issue is you disagreeing with us as to what your own damn local definition means. WP:HARASS remember. Your interpretation of the ToU. How about you help us understand why you don't think what Fram does is harassment? If you even fucking can. They're the people who think they can sit opposite professionals in a Board room and argue their case as equals, so call their damn bluff already.
Unless or until someone from the insurgency offers real concessions on their side that actually mitigates the likely damage to the Foundation's interests that they already have in the works, such as specifically how someone can get the real name and postal address of the next volunteer functionary who thinks they too have seen the "exceptional circumstances" that justify them overriding office actions. Forget the necessary risk assessment of you not caving in, start analyzing the risks of them believing you already have!
The Board issues any kind of concession or admits any kind of mistake at their peril. The community is not a place where such things get you anywhere you want to go, it only gives them even more ammunition down the line. Only powerful community members like Fram can get away with going back on previous admissions of misconduct and face no consequences for it. That is the culture the T&S was setting out to stop, and if the Baord haven't been briefed to that effect, well, their statement could very well be a turning point in a lot of very bad ways.
The Board does anything to undermine the WMF staff, and you for damn sure will see more resignations, with all the attendant disruption and cost. You already surely know the WMF has chronic staff morale. The community is a big reason for that. Perhaps the only reason. It is already a job that is beyond shit in many respects, clearly. I bet a bunch of them are already self-harming or substance abusing. Trust & Safety role? Pass me the scotch. Community liaison? Does my desk have scissors?
There is no trust to be built, or even rebuilt. Fram et al, did their job well. Their vicious and bad faith campaign against the WMF, exemplifying everything the community is really about, a selfish self-interested amoral mob, is a big reason why they were never troubled by the local forces and their pesky conduct policies. Without a major clearance operation, for the foreseeable future the en.wiki community can legitimately be considered at best an unwilling partner, at worst an active threat.
They are already basically defeated. They're all screamed out, their impotency in the face of certain real world realities of their situation - legally, morally and practically - laid bare. They absolutely need you more than you need them, and they fucking know it. Those who want to use this as an excuse to leave, have done so. More might do. But there will be a tomorrow. Replacements are already being lined up. As much as I want it, this isn't what kills Wikipedia. It is, if anything, a genuine chance to achieve a major culture shock.
The revolution is over. Hold your nerve. Christ, they already think you're just stalling for time until it all blows over, so be everything they already think you are, and take all the time you need to make absolutely sure your response is watertight and unassailable. You've already seen how pointless it is to be issuing anything less. They've hit refresh a billion times already because they literally have nothing else going on in their lives, a few more billion won't hurt.
Fuck 'em.
Nobody remotely considered by the mob to be good people are merely asking the WMF anything as conciliatory and pragmatic as to consider if their approach respects their shared goals. Most flatly reject the shared goals on which this action was based.The Board met yesterday to work on a full statement about this. It's not easy getting to consensus with a large group, but overall I think people are going to be happy with the statement and with the things we are asking the WMF staff to do going forward. As one board member wasn't present, we decided to give a bit more time so that we can get to unanimity.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:15, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
....
Indeed. We've made it abundantly clear. I ask everyone who sees fire to try to soothe people. This is going to go the right way. My own personal view is that drama never helps, but making it clear (through strikes/retirements) that something is unacceptable is a totally respectable and useful way to move the needle in an important way. "There's a giant flame war on the Internet" never really makes a dent. "Our best administrators are writing essays about why this is wrong, and many of them have indicated they will quit" makes a big dent. Also: "The good people protesting are not, for the most part, defending bad behavior. They are asking the WMF to consider how this action undermines our efforts to improve behavior" is helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:41, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
The Administrators retiring, such as Dennis Brown, their total and utter contempt for the other side comes through loud and clear. No Board Member worth their seat would fail to see there are no upsides as regards the strategic goals and indeed basic survival of their Foundation to taking seriously anything that even the supposedly "good" elements of the community purports to believe and want.
Who in the community is even bothering to put themselves forward as a reasonable negotiator with remotely viable proposals? Nobody. Their idea of good negotiating, is to bang the table and leave, and berate you lot for not immediately surrendering. As befits their world view and general experience with life, they seem to think this is some crappy Star Trek plot, where they are the morally superior Federation and the Foundation are evil Cardassians, who will only respect overt displays of strength.
Can you help us make and run a noticeboard on en.wiki that lets us know about anything that is going to frighten us? The fuck is that bullshit? Do it yourself, you whiny little bitches. That's the very definition of what an autonomous and self-governing community with pre-existing liaison channels at the highest levels, can and should be doing for itself.
Can you please help us understand what you mean by harassment so we don't make you mad and do things to us that we have to burn this place down over? The fuck is that bullshit? The issue is you disagreeing with us as to what your own damn local definition means. WP:HARASS remember. Your interpretation of the ToU. How about you help us understand why you don't think what Fram does is harassment? If you even fucking can. They're the people who think they can sit opposite professionals in a Board room and argue their case as equals, so call their damn bluff already.
Unless or until someone from the insurgency offers real concessions on their side that actually mitigates the likely damage to the Foundation's interests that they already have in the works, such as specifically how someone can get the real name and postal address of the next volunteer functionary who thinks they too have seen the "exceptional circumstances" that justify them overriding office actions. Forget the necessary risk assessment of you not caving in, start analyzing the risks of them believing you already have!
The Board issues any kind of concession or admits any kind of mistake at their peril. The community is not a place where such things get you anywhere you want to go, it only gives them even more ammunition down the line. Only powerful community members like Fram can get away with going back on previous admissions of misconduct and face no consequences for it. That is the culture the T&S was setting out to stop, and if the Baord haven't been briefed to that effect, well, their statement could very well be a turning point in a lot of very bad ways.
The Board does anything to undermine the WMF staff, and you for damn sure will see more resignations, with all the attendant disruption and cost. You already surely know the WMF has chronic staff morale. The community is a big reason for that. Perhaps the only reason. It is already a job that is beyond shit in many respects, clearly. I bet a bunch of them are already self-harming or substance abusing. Trust & Safety role? Pass me the scotch. Community liaison? Does my desk have scissors?
There is no trust to be built, or even rebuilt. Fram et al, did their job well. Their vicious and bad faith campaign against the WMF, exemplifying everything the community is really about, a selfish self-interested amoral mob, is a big reason why they were never troubled by the local forces and their pesky conduct policies. Without a major clearance operation, for the foreseeable future the en.wiki community can legitimately be considered at best an unwilling partner, at worst an active threat.
They are already basically defeated. They're all screamed out, their impotency in the face of certain real world realities of their situation - legally, morally and practically - laid bare. They absolutely need you more than you need them, and they fucking know it. Those who want to use this as an excuse to leave, have done so. More might do. But there will be a tomorrow. Replacements are already being lined up. As much as I want it, this isn't what kills Wikipedia. It is, if anything, a genuine chance to achieve a major culture shock.
The revolution is over. Hold your nerve. Christ, they already think you're just stalling for time until it all blows over, so be everything they already think you are, and take all the time you need to make absolutely sure your response is watertight and unassailable. You've already seen how pointless it is to be issuing anything less. They've hit refresh a billion times already because they literally have nothing else going on in their lives, a few more billion won't hurt.
Fuck 'em.
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Graaf Statler
- Side Troll
- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm
Re: Fram
CrowsNest wrote:Poor Jimmy. His eternal optimism just sentences him to a lifetime of disappointment.....
Yes. Because this will change nothing, the community will learn nothing from it, a few sysops leave and return with other socks because they are addicted. And be in no time sysop again. And in a month or two mounts everything is back as business as usual.
Re: Fram
It's just Wikipediocracy propaganda. Sure, being a dick gets you admirers and even defenders, it is indeed part of their toxic culture of celebrating insider approved trolls just like Drmies. But any suggestions this is actually necessary to do that scut work, is an obvious lie disproved by the facts on the ground.Graaf Statler wrote:Well, I think Vigilant gave here the answer:Fram can be a dick, but he's scut work that nobody else wants to do.
He's not even in my top 100 of people who need to be shown the door.
His claim is if someone is a productive user it doesn't matter he is a dick from time to time. (Correct me if I am wrong, Vig.)
And exact this makes wikipedia so extreme toxic. The people who keep Wikipedia floating are free to do what they want because of this. For instance Drmies can be a jerk as much as he want, everything he does is forgiven him. If you are a productive user you can be a asshole as much as you want.
Every serious critic knows the names of the people doing the same jobs as Fram and Drmies, but who have never generated even a tenth of the overt pushback from other trusted users, much less their actual targets. Nobody ever likes their work going unnoticed, not that they do it for the recognition. But it has to hurt doubly to see people doing it wrong but being celebrated by those they thought were their peers and partners in their grand experiment.
Serious critics know it is those people, or the people they reach out to as their community representatives, who will form the bulk of the private complaints lodged with T&S about Fram. It is those people the Board owe a duty to, the real Wikipedians. Fuck Fram. He is too far gone to ever really understand why he does what he does is so antithetical to the true ethos of Wikipedia.
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Graaf Statler
- Side Troll
- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm
Re: Fram
You're always wrong, you Swivel-Eyed Loon.
I have yet to see you be right about a single thing.
Go finish Kindergarten.
Hey Crow,
Can you muzzle your dog.
Get lost, Vig. That is what you wrote and till now the only arguments I have ever seen is look what I found about your toy train and watch out for what I have in my pocket.