Fram

[Graaf Statler]

Ah, Fram is from Belgium. People of North Belgium often write better Dutch than the Dutch people.

The Belgian chapter situation

At enwiki, Carcharoth placed a link to a post from 15 June 2019 by the Belgian Wikimedia chapter to the Wikimedia mailing list. Despite being Belgian, I have no knowledge of or connection with any of the people involved, and I haven't been to any Wikimania events or anything similar, so the whole situation was news to me. Just like most people have no means to really decide who is right or wrong (or which bits are right or wrong) in my ban, I don't have the means to be certain what really happened in the WMBE situation. But my own experience, and the way this situation is described, are too similar to be purely coincidental in my opinion.

The mail is very disheartening, and seriously diminishes my belief that the WMF is willing to work on a solution, instead of just stalling in the hope that the enwiki dissent will somehow run out of steam.

"They also indicated that they "had to do something" so they could show the complainants that they do something when complaints are received, even while their decision did not solve/improve the complaints at all. The Trust & Safety team refused to think about real solutions, they refused to organise a dialogue to solve the complaints, they refused to mediate, they promised to organise a meeting with a supervisor, but that they never did. It also became clear they have zero feeling with people with autism. The Trust & Safety said they could not share any more information about what happened because of the privacy of the complainants." Eerily similar...
Again it must be noticed that the Trust & Safety team for the third time on a row refuses to talk with the individual who it concerns first, before drawing any conclusions."

"The Trust & Safety team provided in their communication zero examples of where the Friendly Space Policy has been breached." (at least in my case, they did provide actual examples of what they considered my bannable behaviour, which I have already disclosed above)

"Two chapters have reached out to the Wikimedia Foundation, indicating that the way how the Trust & Safety team was operating is not appropriate, but WMF refuses to take these concerns seriously and has ignored this fully. Again the Trust & Safety team refuses to work together on actual solutions.

To summarise, feedback/information from WMBE's treasurer has been ignored by WMF, feedback from the president of WMBE has been ignored by WMF, feedback from the president and director of WMNL have been ignored by WMF, feedback from other staff members in WMF have been ignored by WMF, feedback from many community members from the movement have been ignored."

A Trust & Safety team which is rapidly losing the trust from large parts of three or four of its biggest "customers" (enwiki, dewiki, frwiki and nlwiki) is a serious problem, and so far there seem to be very few efforts made to regain that trust and open up an actual, open, solution-finding discussion (it may be happening behind the screens of course, but the onwiki comments have been rather vague and noncommittal). Fram (talk) 08:22, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

And here we go.

A Trust & Safety team which is rapidly losing the trust from large parts of three or four of its biggest "customers" (enwiki, dewiki, frwiki and nlwiki) is a serious problem, and so far there seem to be very few efforts made to regain that trust and open up an actual, open, solution-finding discussion (it may be happening behind the screens of course, but the onwiki comments have been rather vague and noncommittal).

Not a wonder if WMF and T&S have lost all there trust in those wiki's, isn't it Fram? Let's keep it to the Dutch wikipedia and the Belgium chapter. What was Romaines main activity on WP-NL and special WQ-NL? Trolling and lying.
Romaine even made bot trolling to a new form of art. And you are talking about autism, but the only thing I have seen in my wiki carrier of the autistic part of the user of WP-NL is the same what Romaine all the time did, lying and trolling. Till the day of today, see yourself how Vig and Bart are trying to compose a evidence against me like the most dirty cop should do.

I is simple not fair to ask for understanding of this behaviour Fram. How much money has WMF total spilled on both Wikipedia-NL, the Belgium chapter, the Dutch chapter, and the Pirate Party? It must be millions and the result is everything can strait into the trash. Because if article 13 is implanted WP-NL must be taken out of the air, that is the only solution to avoid fines and other messenges as putting the whole side on black by the EU. There is simple no other solution.

Bart is for weeks begging if I want to click on links on WP-NL and to edit in his sock puppetry. Vigilant is digging and digging on the internet, is doxxing me, is constant posting irrelevant private info about me in the hope he can find something against me what justify that Global Ban. What he never will find because it doesn't exist.

How can you expect understanding for this behaviour, Fram? What kind of of understanding do you expect, Fram? We understand your guys want a subsidised kindergarten where you can play on the expensive of the donors? Understanding for fuck the law, because we are pirates and outlaw? Understanding for changing wikipedia-NL in a chaos of copyvio and to change the place in a paradise for gender bitches and political POV pushers? Understanding for we have the right to drink the donor money in the bar like Edo wrote to me?

For gods sake, what kind of understand can anyone have for this strange autistic behaviour, Fram???

(Posted on Fram's talk page on commons)

[CrowsNest]

He just keeps digging his own grave.

I don't have the means to be certain what really happened in the WMBE situation. But my own experience, and the way this situation is described, are too similar to be purely coincidental in my opinion.

Poirot, he is clearly not.

[CrowsNest]

I congratulate Fram at least for so thoroughly melting the entire bedrock of Wikipedia......

.......What I'd like to get from this case is a clear understanding of the relationship between the community and the Foundation, and more clarity regarding when and how Office Actions are performed. I don't think it is helpful for ArbCom to swear blind loyalty to the Foundation and promise to uphold whatever action the Foundation does in the future, regardless of how damaging to the community and therefore the project as a whole that action may be. We need clarity before we can support any future Office Action........I am excited at the prospect of how such a case could bring the community and the Foundation together with greater understanding, and we can all move forward in greater harmony and stability. There is an opportunity here to do something great. This is not a time to hush things up and sweep concerns aside, leaving nothing resolved. This is a time to do The Right Thing. SilkTork (talk) 11:18, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

On what planet are these things remotely unclear? What the community does to its rogue Administrators for violating the trust they placed in them and inventing their own policy of WP:DISOBEDIENCE, is up to them, these are mere details that do not concern the WMF-community relationship.

In that regard, what is absolutely crystal clear is that Fram is banned from English Wikipedia for a year, unless or until the WMF says otherwise. If he violates that ban, it gets upgraded to Global Ban. If any Administrator assists him, they will be Globally banned. If ArbCom assists him as a body, they will be dissolved, their powers turned over to people whose deference to the executive power of WMF over their domain is not in question. If no such local representatives can be found, the powers will be exercised directly, by WMF employees, thereby revealing the real reason ArbCom 'doesn't do content'.

The community is not autonomous, much less sovereign, it doesn't have rights (because it has no responsibilities), it is not the Foundation's equal, not even their ArbCom has any real status that means anything outside of the bubble of the community, and they certainly have no power to affect anyone outside of it.

All the legal and indeed moral authority over and for Wikipedia resides with the Foundation. Why? Because they have all the responsibility. The community is nothing in that regard, their legal accountability and responsibility begins and ends at the individual. The relationship between the individual and the WMF is not dictated, much less controlled, by anything that the WMF does not have Supreme Authority over. Because they are the body who enter into a User Agreement with the individual, and in rarer cases, other Agreements relating to privacy etc.

Any such powers which appear to have been granted to the community, are exactly that - grants. Gifts from the Gods. An illusion of power from people wise enough to realize the inherent benefits in letting the drones think they have some control over their tiny miserable lives in the Salt Mines.

The community has no rights. Certainly not to free assembly, expression, self-determination, self-defense, or any other right you can apply to a nominal group. Individuals within it have their legal rights, including their (partly useless) copyright, and the right to leave any time they want, and that's it.

A group with no identifiable collective rights, has no power. The seemingly inherent moral rights even of the mighty CONSENSUS, is a cruel trick the WMF has played on the drones. Even crueler when it is easy for the WMF to identify the local consensus the separatists invoking the Will Of The People have violated, much less the global consensus that exists in places where matters concerning the global community exist.

The community can advise, even protest, the WMF. But there is no obligation to even listen. They do it as a courtesy, but not out of any serious fear that if they did not, there would be consequences. This is the very essence of the community's powerlessness - nobody at the WMF has to worry about the consequences of ignoring them.

Even the right to leave is pretty insignificant, since it took no effort to arrive and nominally become a member of the community. All the psychological, emotional, and often even material loss that results from an individual's decision to exercise their right to leave, derives not from any relationship they had with the WMF, nor can it therefore be a consequence of the WMF.

It is cruel in the extreme that this pain actually comes from this warped idea there even is a community, something to which you can belong, your worth being measured in a myriad of ways that simply don't have any bearing on the actual relationship the user entered into with the WMF. They perhaps bear some responsibility for not disavowing people of these myths, but it is also true this potential for harm has been largely created by the volunteers themselves, as they manifested this myth of a community.

There are ways to give the community or its sub-groups a legal status that would bring some of these fantasies and delusions into the realm of reality. It will never happen, and the biggest reason would probably be the community freaking out when they realize what that would mean for them.

The Right Thing to do here for any tinpot local representative, would be to give the people the hard truth, and let them decide for themselves, are they going to knuckle under and accept their insignificance, or are they going to exercise their only actual right in this scenario - leave?

[CrowsNest]

What the Foundation said:

Fram, you are banned from English Wikipedia for a year, this decision is final and not subject to appeal. In recognition of your useful contributions, you are permitted to make constructive contributions to other WMF sites in the meantime.

What Fram apparently heard:

Fram, you have been unjustly banned and you must fight this travesty with all your heart; use your post-ban freedom edit other projects to mount your never ending appeal, and expect people to give you credit, not condemnation, for choosing not to take your campaign to a different website, one where the editors this ban was meant to insulate you from, could safely ignore you.

What the community apparently saw:

Oh look, Fram can still post to Commons. Despite it being against all our policies and usual practices, let's ignore the WMF (because WE ARE SOVEREIGN) and assist him in his appeal, transferring all his whining over here and obsessing over it, and fuck any editor this might further victimise, they are not and never will be One Of Us.

Love it.

This is Wikipedia. This is what the community tolerates. This is what a dirty house looks like.

This isn't just a few malcontents either. The people doing this, NewYorkBrad, Carcharoth, etc, they were Arbitrators. Needless to say, countless other Administrators are doing it too.

[CrowsNest]

The community is eagerly trying to maintain an index of all the places they've soiled over this nonsense. A happy side effect is that they are also compiling all the times en.wiki dropped the ball, including the Holy ArbCom.

Bearing in mind Fram was not blocked for his final rant against ArbCom, the single incident a lot of people are trying to pretend is the reason for his ban, it is frankly hilarious to note these comments from en.wiki ArbCom, made in March 2018, and then compare them to what the same Arbitrators said in January 2019 when ArbCom had a second opportunity to handle Fram......

I don’t think this is ripe for us yet. If there’s a case to be made against Fram, someone can bring it, but a boomerang isn’t an option for me here. Katietalk 18:50, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I have concerns about how Fram behaves in these circumstances; he's like a dog with a bone, a really, really tasty bone, and it does not reflect well on him or the issues which he champions. Harry Mitchell's recent comment is spot on, and I hope Fram takes this criticism in the spirit in which it's intended – to help him. However, this case isn't about Fram or Bbb23. It's about GiantSnowman, and these proposed FoFs are a sideshow. Katietalk 14:01, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

There still is a discussion on AN, and this as presented is not a matter for Arbcom to take up at this time. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I do not feel that there is a finding here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 17:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Decline as this isn't ready for us due to the AN discussion. Doug Weller talk 19:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that there are any comments made by my colleagues opposing this that I disagree with. I do like Opabinia's description "exhausting". There's no need for a finding here. Doug Weller talk 17:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Decline. .... I urge Fram to carefully consider the feedback he is receiving here and on both AN/ANI threads, and to moderate his approach to raising concerns even when he believes he has identified a significant problem. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Per the other opposers above and per my comment on the proposed remedy below. Newyorkbrad (talk) 11:38, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Decline, per the above. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:37, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I went back and forth on this one. Ultimately, unlike the reminder about closing discussions early, I don't think this is warranted. ....... I agree with OR that Fram's tone can sometimes be overly urgent, but I don't think it rises to the point of requiring a finding here. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Decline, but I hope nobody walks away from this thinking they were in fact behaving well and it's all the other guy's fault. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:48, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Fram's style of presenting concerns at exhaustive length in an unrelenting tone of MAXIMUM URGENCY is, well, exhausting. And the habit of treating every molehill as a mountain is ironically ineffective at drawing attention to actual mountains - it's alarm fatigue in text form. That said, I don't think we need a finding (or a remedy) in this case about Fram. This seems to me to be of a piece with the proposals about Bbb23 - sort of a side point that risks distracting the decision away from its focus on the core problems and into back-office stuff. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:08, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to the party and my thoughts largely echo the other arbitrators, no party has behaved exceptionally here. I will say though, with regard to Fram specifically, I would be considering accepting a case, though not in the form of a boomerang. Fram, this is the third time in just over 4 months that you've been involved in unrelated case requests - to do with behaviour that supposedly the community cannot handle. I advice that some introspection would be useful to stop a fourth time, as it certainly appears that you are the common factor in multiple disputes. Decline for now WormTT(talk) 14:58, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

(Abstain) The difficulties I have with Fram's behaviour are hard to explain, Fram understands Wikipedia policies associated legal requirements better than almost anyone I know. The way they explain it, however, would be impossible for any user to manage. I see HJ Mitchell has recently commented Fram has an ugly habit of railroading good-faith but somewhat troubled editors like this by taking a legitimate but relativley minor issue, then subjecting an editor to levels of scrutiny nobody could withstand, then blowing the issues out of all proportion, all the while badgering the editor incessantly so that they feel they can't breathe without Fram coming down on them like a ton of bricks.[9] - which does explain my concerns rather well. Now, I'm not sure that I support this particular finding, but I am reminded that the last time I felt Fram was overstepping the mark[10], they responded with introspection[11] and I don't recall seeing issues for the remainder of the year. Whether or not we do pass something, I hope Fram will take our concerns on board. WormTT(talk) 14:32, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia governance in action, the reason for the rot and stink around the place.

Even people already on notice that they are expected to adhere to the 'highest standards" by virtue of them already being trusted to be Administrators, are still given multiple second chances by the highest powers that be. Not every Arbitrator made these mistakes, but as a Committee, the outcome was no action, then no action. And then he attacked ArbCom, and still there was no action, not from ArbCom or the Administrators. As I've said before, this whole idea there needs to be a case before them called "Fram" is just so much bullshit, on so many levels, not least that they tried to stop naming cases after editors, lest it make them feel prejudged!

Honestly, how these rebels can't see that the list of potential suspects as far as who the RAT is, could actually be pretty damn long, is beyond me. By the time Fram attacked ArbCom, he probably thought he was untouchable, and were it not for the RAT and the WMF's enhanced Rendition techniques, he probably would have remained that way.

[CrowsNest]

My personal favorite?

This complaint by Jaguar.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... op_of_Fram

......which pretty much shows that Fram was being protected by some of the most powerful Administrators Wikipedia has, dismissing what was a pretty comprehensively evidence backed complaint (by AN/I standards), speaking to a long term pattern of behavior. The protecting Administrators, famous around these parts for their lack of character (but hailed in the Other Place, of course) nit-picked the complaint and seemed more interested in attacking the messenger.

Jaguar wasn't even asking for a ban, just for Fram to be demoted to the status of an ordinary editor, which would go some way to mitigating the specifics......

I and many others believe that Fram has been the biggest bully on English Wikipedia for a time now. .....I consider him to be an overall hindrance to Wikipedia because of the negative effects he has on other editors. This is not an editor purely going about improving the site, but an editor who appears to systematically target individuals ......and bullies them often overzealously to the point of submission from editing the site by humilating and harassing them in the guise of cleansing Wikipedia of inaccuracies, copyright violations, DYK errors and lacking GAs. Fram's misconduct of late I think is a prime example ....... He became very abusive when challenged and then proceeded to open another arbcom case, one of several which have been rejected in recent months alone. He is causing a nuisance to ArbCom and his behaviour has been brought into question currently by many others. His temperament and social understanding is severely lacking........

Others were receptive but dismissed on the grounds that ArbCom were the only ones who can demote an Administrator. Not only have we seen the result, this was a cop-out in another way too - the community merely lacks the technical means to stop Fram being an Administrator. They have a always had the power of consensus based discussion to investigate and if necessary place Fram under voluntary restrictions of whatever nature are deemed best to correct the behaviour. If they were disobeyed, Functionaries would have no choice but to demote, if, of course, the presupposition that the community are sovereign holds true.

The very last thing Wikipedians should want, is the media digging around this dirty laundry.

[CrowsNest]

Reality seems to be hitting home hard for the 'they need us more than we need them' crowd. They're still happily ignoring the fact it is their addiction that keeps them there, but they are now willing to accept that because they were just too successful at being unpaid volunteers, English Wikipedia has now become too big and expensive to fork, and even if they did, they'd have real problems competing against the sheer market dominance of Original Wikipedia. It also doesn't look like the Separatists are really interested in getting their hands dirty with doing the jobs they graciously admit should be the purview of the legal owners of the website, and they can't figure out how to trick someone else into doing it.

What a bunch of dirty little chicken hearted fucks. Deluding themselves to the very end. Just how much of today's Wikipedia will have actually been written by the people now loudly bitching and moaning about the FramBan? I'd be amazed if it is greater than say 5%, and even as I type that sounds ridiculously generous.

[CrowsNest]

Honestly, the whole community needs a blowtorch taken to it, the phrase "established editor" at this point simply means clueless fuck with dubious parentage.

Here's one description of what happened, from a user I'm not going to name because he's an attention whore.....

To indef ban an admin without a hearing of any kind is one thing, but to remove someone based on an anonymous, unreleased complaint, without even stating why, is quite chilling.

How can you possibly make that many errors in just one sentence?

It's quite easy to make such mistakes when you realize the dude was already retired before the incident, but now wants to claim it proves he was a right to retire because of his unspecified fears of the Foundation. Pretty hard to do that when what actually happened was widely condemned as a shocking surprise and a dangerous precedent, so they've altered it slightly (hugely) to better fit whatever it is that he is pissed about.

Muppet.

[CrowsNest]

Looks like the ArbCase was simply just a mole hunt.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =902592342

.....I'm telling you, these Bureaucrats, going way off reservation these days.

[CrowsNest]

Things are just getting sad now. Amid ever ridiculous proposals attracting ever dwindling interest, they seem reluctant to accept their revolution has died, that they are and always will be, slaves. And slaves have Masters.

Poor schmucks.

They're even floating the idea of hacking the whole website. Wouldn't happen right? Sure. I mean, they have the technical ability, I grant you, but they'd be crazy to do it. Nah, silly idea. Would get the press involved and prompt the Board to actually say something and all sorts of other silly stuff. So no. Don't do that..Seriously don't. OK, all right, but just for a minute! And only the tip!