As I wrote on aggie's RW the solution has to come from outside and governments. And the press has to wake up out of it's coma. It is not fair to expect we can give the solution or to solve this, that is not our task. We are not payed for that.
Wikipedia is a no ones child. No one want to have it or wants to have the responsibility for it. And it is roaming through the big bad digital wide world without parents, Surrounded by greedy profiteers. And that is the real situation as it is my friends.
Fram
Re: Fram
Unguided, the genuinely novel aspects of the community reaction to FRAMBAN has actually been pretty hilarious. These have all been genuine proposals...
* Stop people airing Wikipedia's dirty laundry on Twitter
* Work harder to ensure that banned users can't complain on Wikipedia
* Stop using words like "toxic" to describe the problem
* Delete the community newsletter
You might be sensing the common theme. We don't call Wikipedia a cult for no reason.
* Stop people airing Wikipedia's dirty laundry on Twitter
* Work harder to ensure that banned users can't complain on Wikipedia
* Stop using words like "toxic" to describe the problem
* Delete the community newsletter
You might be sensing the common theme. We don't call Wikipedia a cult for no reason.
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Graaf Statler
- Side Troll
- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm
Re: Fram
There hiding behind section 230 and of the Dutch and Belgium chapter behind a verenigingsstructuur, a association structure is hilarious, just like there complete sweeping under the carpet policy.
It's a drama, there Hotel California where they all are locked up in. Troll till you drop is the only motto what is left.
It's a drama, there Hotel California where they all are locked up in. Troll till you drop is the only motto what is left.
Re: Fram
Wikipediocracy is now right back to doing what they do best.....
Not even trying to pretend this shit is supposed to make sense anymore. Just howling at the Moon.
There are obvious problems with speeches given by Jimmy in the past, and how he has transformed himself post-FRAMBAN. But absent any evidence he has done this because he has Lizard DNA, or is part of a Grand Conspiracy, I'm gonna go with the more obvious explanation. Having realized he was never going to get more than just speaking fees and general prestige from his success in founding Wikipedia, he has realized the time has come to try and persuade the world he does actually have some influence over what goes on in the cult. In six months time, he'll be talking about how he has once again inspired the movement to be better people. Even though he won't have. Just like he failed in 2014 to get anyone to do anything about the toxic user problem. The WMF tried, in a way that best fits the obvious and well known structural issues that afflict the community, and he's royally kicked them in the nuts for it.
I want the Board minutes too. Not to identify which ones are Lizards. I want to KNOW what lies Jimmy could possibly have told them to persuade them that the community deserves yet another chance to get its house in order. Y'know, Wikipedia criticism, based on actual observable evidence and sound inference. Try it some time.
What did he know about what?The target is Jimmy Wales, who derives his income from posing as the leader of Wikipedia and giving speeches about Wikipedia.
What did Jimmy know and when did he know it?
Not even trying to pretend this shit is supposed to make sense anymore. Just howling at the Moon.
There are obvious problems with speeches given by Jimmy in the past, and how he has transformed himself post-FRAMBAN. But absent any evidence he has done this because he has Lizard DNA, or is part of a Grand Conspiracy, I'm gonna go with the more obvious explanation. Having realized he was never going to get more than just speaking fees and general prestige from his success in founding Wikipedia, he has realized the time has come to try and persuade the world he does actually have some influence over what goes on in the cult. In six months time, he'll be talking about how he has once again inspired the movement to be better people. Even though he won't have. Just like he failed in 2014 to get anyone to do anything about the toxic user problem. The WMF tried, in a way that best fits the obvious and well known structural issues that afflict the community, and he's royally kicked them in the nuts for it.
I want the Board minutes too. Not to identify which ones are Lizards. I want to KNOW what lies Jimmy could possibly have told them to persuade them that the community deserves yet another chance to get its house in order. Y'know, Wikipedia criticism, based on actual observable evidence and sound inference. Try it some time.
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Graaf Statler
- Side Troll
- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm
Re: Fram
O Jimmy. The only thing you can blame him for is believing in Panduin, the utopia what will be reached in 2030. In that year the pirate flag will be raised all over the world and on the European parlement too. Not very realistic.
This toxic community will teach nothing, never. And maybe the time has come the board have to understand there mission is a imposible one. Yes Crow, it should be great if you could have a chat with them because this leads to nothing. Really to nothing.
This toxic community will teach nothing, never. And maybe the time has come the board have to understand there mission is a imposible one. Yes Crow, it should be great if you could have a chat with them because this leads to nothing. Really to nothing.
Re: Fram
Is this the conspiracy theory.....
Hale and the Chair are married. Despite this having been public information disclosed at the relevant time, it was apparently deemed secret by the sleuths of Wikipediocracy. This potential COI is obviously why the Chair recused from the Foundation investigation of Fram, but apparently this too would have been secret information that nobody else on the Board or T&S would have known. Apart from the fact at least some needed to know, so they could influence all the parts of the flowchart process followed for Fram, in the way the conspirators would have known this Chair would have wanted.
Her wishes having of course been documented in minutes, but also of course not documented, because who would be stupid enough to risk career destruction by writing that shit down? And so it came to pass. The sisterhood managed to get Fram banned, their years long plan finally coming to fruition. They were the sole complainants, all the evidence used to convict Fram was just the careful manipulation of the social justice cabal.
All the time the evil conspirators toyed with Fram, maturing this plot, until the trap could finally be sprung. Hiding their true connections, their entireley unknown marital status and friendships with other Wikipedians with shared interests and equally active participation in the outreach/meatspace elements of the cult. They totally blindsided Fram, leaving him no opportunity to understand why, in their company, he was only hurting himself by not behaving like an Administrator should. Entrapment! We see it all the time on AN/I, all those honest Wikipedia Administrators being careful to declare all their conflicts of interest.
The community representatives on the Board went along with it all, because they are in on it. As did the Affiliate seats, beholden as they are to their pay masters. Jimmy went along with it too of course, having appointed the Chair, and he is just pretending not to have known now, safe in the knowledge nobody on the Board would rat him out. Always been best of friends, Jimmy and the Doc.
The entire T&S Department went along with it, or are choosing not to blow the whistle now they realize they were duped, because they have to. It is in their employment contract - thou shall maintain any and all Foundation secrets, even after your employer has just thrown you under the bus for doing what you thought was your job, or otherwise carrying out their secret plots. ArbCom are not blowing the whistle after receiving the dossier that comprises only the sisterhood's evil plan laid bare, because they are in on it too. Always wanted to ban Fam, those turncoat bastards, that being the only conceivable reason they didn't alert the community to the sisterhood's plot when they told them in their minutes it was about to happen in the coming days.
I'm sure I've missed out other crucial elements. Something about lesbian sex on private jets to far flung Wikiconferences funded by embezzlement of donor funds intended to keep Fram in stationary, or some bullshit.
Well, I'm convinced. I'm supposed to ring the IRS now, right? Or is it the FBI?
Fuck off.
Hale and the Chair are married. Despite this having been public information disclosed at the relevant time, it was apparently deemed secret by the sleuths of Wikipediocracy. This potential COI is obviously why the Chair recused from the Foundation investigation of Fram, but apparently this too would have been secret information that nobody else on the Board or T&S would have known. Apart from the fact at least some needed to know, so they could influence all the parts of the flowchart process followed for Fram, in the way the conspirators would have known this Chair would have wanted.
Her wishes having of course been documented in minutes, but also of course not documented, because who would be stupid enough to risk career destruction by writing that shit down? And so it came to pass. The sisterhood managed to get Fram banned, their years long plan finally coming to fruition. They were the sole complainants, all the evidence used to convict Fram was just the careful manipulation of the social justice cabal.
All the time the evil conspirators toyed with Fram, maturing this plot, until the trap could finally be sprung. Hiding their true connections, their entireley unknown marital status and friendships with other Wikipedians with shared interests and equally active participation in the outreach/meatspace elements of the cult. They totally blindsided Fram, leaving him no opportunity to understand why, in their company, he was only hurting himself by not behaving like an Administrator should. Entrapment! We see it all the time on AN/I, all those honest Wikipedia Administrators being careful to declare all their conflicts of interest.
The community representatives on the Board went along with it all, because they are in on it. As did the Affiliate seats, beholden as they are to their pay masters. Jimmy went along with it too of course, having appointed the Chair, and he is just pretending not to have known now, safe in the knowledge nobody on the Board would rat him out. Always been best of friends, Jimmy and the Doc.
The entire T&S Department went along with it, or are choosing not to blow the whistle now they realize they were duped, because they have to. It is in their employment contract - thou shall maintain any and all Foundation secrets, even after your employer has just thrown you under the bus for doing what you thought was your job, or otherwise carrying out their secret plots. ArbCom are not blowing the whistle after receiving the dossier that comprises only the sisterhood's evil plan laid bare, because they are in on it too. Always wanted to ban Fam, those turncoat bastards, that being the only conceivable reason they didn't alert the community to the sisterhood's plot when they told them in their minutes it was about to happen in the coming days.
I'm sure I've missed out other crucial elements. Something about lesbian sex on private jets to far flung Wikiconferences funded by embezzlement of donor funds intended to keep Fram in stationary, or some bullshit.
Well, I'm convinced. I'm supposed to ring the IRS now, right? Or is it the FBI?
Fuck off.
Re: Fram
It's pretty pathetic how fast all that community anger has just petered out. You can't blame the Foundation either, they gave the community plenty of detail about what they would like to know from them, if or when Maher's people turn up to start trying to make sense of it all. In the interests of mutual understanding and partnership and blah di fucking blah blah.
It's almost as if it was all just hot air and fake outrage, nothing remotely coming from a serious place, with serious goals, from serious people. Just one big giant tantrum.
Two days ago someone began a discussion over what exactly should be the limits of community self-governance. It has received a total of seven respondents.
Iridescent - WMF should retain its powers to ban anyone for any reason (but only because if they don't, they might start getting sued)
Donald Albury - moot question, they can exercise whatever power they deem necessary
Dirk Beestra - anything they like, as long as they let the community know what powers they plan to exercise (so the community can complain)
Tryptofish - nothing the community has reserved to the jurisdiction of ArbCom
Phil Bridger - only that which is necessary to maintain Wikipedia as a volunteer-generated encyclopedia, seeing it as a workplace, not a social media site
Levivich - whatever they will allow us to do
Seraphimblade - whatever they are legally required to do, whatever else is agreed beforehand, urgent software updates, and other software changes agreed in advance.
-------
What a load of crap. They barely even seem to understand the whole point of the user kicking off the debate, was to draw up a specific list, a set of clearly delineated areas of jurisdiction, an agreed upon list of what the community claims exclusive competency over, what the Foundation has exclusivity for, and what they can consider to be shared responsibilities. Clarity.
The dude wasn't even asking for polished proposals, just some sense people have actually bothered to think about it, in light of the drama caused by FRAMBAN, and are prepared to come to some kind of consensus.
As anyone can see, the exercise has been a complete waste of time. Nothing has been said that wasn't already known, much of it entirely irrelevant to the task at hand.
This is the English Wikipedia community, this is how these fuckers would actually govern themselves, given half the chance - a tiny but entirely useless set of editors sort of mimicking what they think is governance, but the vast majority just proceeding with the attitude that if it isn't already on fire, then just don't bother to give a shit, just carry on working on the important stuff.
I suppose you can say that is one way to look at NOTBURO. But we are well beyond the point these bastards seem willing to accept that the Foundation should be trusted to just do what they think is right, and if they make a mistake it can be easily corrected with an ad hoc inquiry conducted on the basis it must have been a good faith error.
No, as the OP made clear - if the community is going to go utterly apeshit even when the Foundation does things it was legitimately entitled to think were their powers to exercise (silence is consensus is official en.wiki policy, if we pretend like the Office actions page was even subject to consensus, as they seem to think), then it makes sense to have these things agreed in advance, so everyone knows where they stand.
But no. Too obvious. Too logical. Too much like work. People don't volunteer for Wikipedia to work. They are there to write, and to fight. If they 'ain't writing, then they be fightin'. Not unlike kindergarten.
Fuck 'em. Then only rational response the Foundation should have had to any of this buuuuuulllshhiiiitt.
The Board were complete idiots to respond to it as if it was remotely in their interests to do so. I think they might soon find out, through general disinterest from the business end of the Foundation in not wanting to nursemaid the community through waste of time debates like this, or try to make sense of whatever nonsense is the output, and get on with something that actually needs doing to ensure the lights stay on and the money keeps rolling in.
It's almost as if it was all just hot air and fake outrage, nothing remotely coming from a serious place, with serious goals, from serious people. Just one big giant tantrum.
Two days ago someone began a discussion over what exactly should be the limits of community self-governance. It has received a total of seven respondents.
Iridescent - WMF should retain its powers to ban anyone for any reason (but only because if they don't, they might start getting sued)
Donald Albury - moot question, they can exercise whatever power they deem necessary
Dirk Beestra - anything they like, as long as they let the community know what powers they plan to exercise (so the community can complain)
Tryptofish - nothing the community has reserved to the jurisdiction of ArbCom
Phil Bridger - only that which is necessary to maintain Wikipedia as a volunteer-generated encyclopedia, seeing it as a workplace, not a social media site
Levivich - whatever they will allow us to do
Seraphimblade - whatever they are legally required to do, whatever else is agreed beforehand, urgent software updates, and other software changes agreed in advance.
-------
What a load of crap. They barely even seem to understand the whole point of the user kicking off the debate, was to draw up a specific list, a set of clearly delineated areas of jurisdiction, an agreed upon list of what the community claims exclusive competency over, what the Foundation has exclusivity for, and what they can consider to be shared responsibilities. Clarity.
The dude wasn't even asking for polished proposals, just some sense people have actually bothered to think about it, in light of the drama caused by FRAMBAN, and are prepared to come to some kind of consensus.
As anyone can see, the exercise has been a complete waste of time. Nothing has been said that wasn't already known, much of it entirely irrelevant to the task at hand.
This is the English Wikipedia community, this is how these fuckers would actually govern themselves, given half the chance - a tiny but entirely useless set of editors sort of mimicking what they think is governance, but the vast majority just proceeding with the attitude that if it isn't already on fire, then just don't bother to give a shit, just carry on working on the important stuff.
I suppose you can say that is one way to look at NOTBURO. But we are well beyond the point these bastards seem willing to accept that the Foundation should be trusted to just do what they think is right, and if they make a mistake it can be easily corrected with an ad hoc inquiry conducted on the basis it must have been a good faith error.
No, as the OP made clear - if the community is going to go utterly apeshit even when the Foundation does things it was legitimately entitled to think were their powers to exercise (silence is consensus is official en.wiki policy, if we pretend like the Office actions page was even subject to consensus, as they seem to think), then it makes sense to have these things agreed in advance, so everyone knows where they stand.
But no. Too obvious. Too logical. Too much like work. People don't volunteer for Wikipedia to work. They are there to write, and to fight. If they 'ain't writing, then they be fightin'. Not unlike kindergarten.
Fuck 'em. Then only rational response the Foundation should have had to any of this buuuuuulllshhiiiitt.
The Board were complete idiots to respond to it as if it was remotely in their interests to do so. I think they might soon find out, through general disinterest from the business end of the Foundation in not wanting to nursemaid the community through waste of time debates like this, or try to make sense of whatever nonsense is the output, and get on with something that actually needs doing to ensure the lights stay on and the money keeps rolling in.
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Graaf Statler
- Side Troll
- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm
Re: Fram
I am really missing Ymnes in this soap. Yes I do. Because normally in this stage of the troll plan he started with: And what are we to do now? And betrayed the rest of the troll strategy.
There troll plans are always so incredible childish and fucking stupide, just like the mails Bart Legal and De Wikitroll always have send me.
Because this had to be the start of a revolt, and the one who had complained is of course Guido himself. They want to get ride of WMF and the board, that's clear. They are of course stupide, but not so stupide not to understand WMF is not longer willing to finance there Pirate games in Panduin in the future. Because that is absolute useless, they are not crazy there in LA
There troll plans are always so incredible childish and fucking stupide, just like the mails Bart Legal and De Wikitroll always have send me.
Because this had to be the start of a revolt, and the one who had complained is of course Guido himself. They want to get ride of WMF and the board, that's clear. They are of course stupide, but not so stupide not to understand WMF is not longer willing to finance there Pirate games in Panduin in the future. Because that is absolute useless, they are not crazy there in LA
Re: Fram
Wikipediocracy have just engineered the departure of the user who Fram accused of pedophilia, using well established Wikipedian methods. He was inconvenient to the narrative they're trying to build, so first his story was moved out of view, and now he has been too.
Incredibly, they still seem to think a journalist is going to run with their Hale investigation any minute now, or that somehow WMF people are just going to start spontaneously resigning because they want them to.
Deluded.
All they've done is shown why women who report harassment on Wikipedia, really shouldn't. Or in this case, they shouldn't even do anything that might even make people think they reported harassment on Wikipedia, especially not against powerful male Administrators who can seemingly get away with accusing people of pedophilia, in part because there simply aren't any basic standards being locally enforced, but also because of the inherent corruption in a local system that inexplicably marks out people like Black Kite as being trustworthy (you might have been able to learn the truth about him on Wikipediocracy back in the day, but funnily enough, that gets you banned there too, these days).
There is a media story here, just not the one they would want. Not the one the rebel Wikipedians really want either, hence why they're not publicizing this shit on Wikipedia. Not even via scum like Black Kite, even though he is aware, having done his usual Wikipedia Administrator trick on their forum, suffering no consequences for it, because why would there be any consequences for bad actors on Wikipediocracy when they're all on the same page regarding the main issue, the nobility of a Gamergate style crusade against those who would challenge the patriarchy.......
I wonder. Is being the Trustee of an external forum that facilitates Gamergate style witchunts of the significant others of WMF staff, but who also attends WikiConferences looking for polite conversations with Wikipedians as to how Wikipedia can be reformed, enough to get one a proper Global Ban? Or is that something that can be left to the responsible levers of local self-government?
ArbCom are still tight lipped on what the next steps are. Perhaps a full case looks increasingly unattractive now, from the PR angle? If they did their job properly, how would any of the community members who have thus far posted on Wikipediocracy in furtherance of the Gamergate stuff, not get banned? Much less expose the deep links between the community and the movement, through certain members with certain views. There is precedent for ArbCom banning people for off-site harassment, especially those who bring that shit onto Wikipedia (hence why it is so believable when Fram insisted he never did anything to anyone off-wiki, knowing as he did that this was one rule they do take seriously).
I note that NewYorkBrad hasn't posted on Wikipediocracy during this whole affair. Wise move. Wouldn't want to compromise his new found role as a press spokesperson for how the community governs itself, which had the rather predictable outcome that he is now wikifamous. Anyway, Wikipediocracy, you were saying something about grifters?
Incredibly, they still seem to think a journalist is going to run with their Hale investigation any minute now, or that somehow WMF people are just going to start spontaneously resigning because they want them to.
Deluded.
All they've done is shown why women who report harassment on Wikipedia, really shouldn't. Or in this case, they shouldn't even do anything that might even make people think they reported harassment on Wikipedia, especially not against powerful male Administrators who can seemingly get away with accusing people of pedophilia, in part because there simply aren't any basic standards being locally enforced, but also because of the inherent corruption in a local system that inexplicably marks out people like Black Kite as being trustworthy (you might have been able to learn the truth about him on Wikipediocracy back in the day, but funnily enough, that gets you banned there too, these days).
There is a media story here, just not the one they would want. Not the one the rebel Wikipedians really want either, hence why they're not publicizing this shit on Wikipedia. Not even via scum like Black Kite, even though he is aware, having done his usual Wikipedia Administrator trick on their forum, suffering no consequences for it, because why would there be any consequences for bad actors on Wikipediocracy when they're all on the same page regarding the main issue, the nobility of a Gamergate style crusade against those who would challenge the patriarchy.......
I wonder. Is being the Trustee of an external forum that facilitates Gamergate style witchunts of the significant others of WMF staff, but who also attends WikiConferences looking for polite conversations with Wikipedians as to how Wikipedia can be reformed, enough to get one a proper Global Ban? Or is that something that can be left to the responsible levers of local self-government?
ArbCom are still tight lipped on what the next steps are. Perhaps a full case looks increasingly unattractive now, from the PR angle? If they did their job properly, how would any of the community members who have thus far posted on Wikipediocracy in furtherance of the Gamergate stuff, not get banned? Much less expose the deep links between the community and the movement, through certain members with certain views. There is precedent for ArbCom banning people for off-site harassment, especially those who bring that shit onto Wikipedia (hence why it is so believable when Fram insisted he never did anything to anyone off-wiki, knowing as he did that this was one rule they do take seriously).
I note that NewYorkBrad hasn't posted on Wikipediocracy during this whole affair. Wise move. Wouldn't want to compromise his new found role as a press spokesperson for how the community governs itself, which had the rather predictable outcome that he is now wikifamous. Anyway, Wikipediocracy, you were saying something about grifters?
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Graaf Statler
- Side Troll
- Posts: 3996
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm
Re: Fram
.CrowsNest wrote:ArbCom are still tight lipped on what the next steps are. Perhaps a full case looks increasingly unattractive now, from the PR angle? If they did their job properly, how would any of the community members who have thus far posted on Wikipediocracy in furtherance of the Gamergate stuff, not get banned? Much less expose the deep links between the community and the movement, through certain members with certain views. There is precedent for ArbCom banning people for off-site harassment, especially those who bring that shit onto Wikipedia (hence why it is so believable when Fram insisted he never did anything to anyone off-wiki, knowing as he did that this was one rule they do take seriously)
The only thing what arbcom is waiting is a payment in wikipedia's crypto money, Shit Budgets. Whatever they do they will be paid generous and the only wise thing they can do is resign collectively and play the ball back to T&S. Because Jan and his team is payed for this and they not, let them cash the SB's.
I note that NewYorkBrad hasn't posted on Wikipediocracy during this whole affair. Wise move. Wouldn't want to compromise his new found role as a press spokesperson for how the community governs itself, which had the rather predictable outcome that he is now wikifamous. Anyway, Wikipediocracy, you were saying something about grifters?
Ha, what do you think his Jones colleges will say to him on some charity party the next time where they meet him? Or do you believe that Jones lawyers are not follow this crazy soap?
They will award him for the joker lawyer award of the century and for sure he will win!