Fram

[CrowsNest]

What a real piece of work this guy is.

.....It has been a matter of great sadness to me to see some suggest that I don't take the issue of harassment seriously or that recent actions by me are supportive of harassment. That is not the case......The WMF account of its actions in relation to Fram does not withstand the most cursory scrutiny - it should be treated with utmost suspicion.......I would remind everyone that over the last few years I been minimally active on the project, with little time to dedicate to it. ......WJBscribe (talk) 11:05, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

If you haven't been around, that explains your inability to appreciate why more active volunteers think the cap more than fits when they see Fram accused of harassment, stuff that the WMF could quite easily defend in court as having been.....

Repeated misconduct within a single Foundation-supported project, with considerable impact either on that project overall or on individual contributors who are active in that project.

Fram is so fucking guilty, the local's response has been to remove that text from local Wikipedia policy. Was only on Wikipedia by mistake, they claim.

If you think it doesn't withstand even cursory scrutiny, it is for you to convince others this is the case, not abuse your privelaged position to turn your opinion into reality. it actually stands up so well, most of the people casting doubt on the WMF's account are having to resort to nothing better than conspiracy theory, bad faith, moronic levels of argument, and just plain deliberate deafness, to make their case. As usual, the Bureaucrats are nowhere to be seen, to remind people where they are, what local policy actually is.

Your claim to take harassment seriously rings hollow - nobody who has read the testimonies of people Fram has gone after, are left in any doubt that whatever the objective reality is, their personal experience has been just as harrowing as anything you've had to face in your pissant life.

In short, get the fuck out of here with this self-serving bullshit, the fact someone like you can hold high office in Wikipedia, is exactly why the local environment is so fucked beyond belief - culturally, ethically, morally, and procedurally. The WMF are beacons of good practice in comparison.

[CrowsNest]

Right on cue, on that guy's bye and thanks for all the greatness party, there's lying bullshit like this on offer....

The dumbest thing about this whole mess is it could have been prevented if the WMF had simply and transparently said something like, "For harassment, including off-wiki harassment at an editor's workplace [or insert whatever he really did here], Fram is banned". As it is, the indications from the WMF are that something happened off-wiki, but their alleged email to Fram simply mentions the "Fuck Arbcom" tirade. If Fram is lying, why don't the WMF simply call him out? While there is a need for privacy and to not re-victimize people, a purely-opaque process is just as bad. Anyways, I'm sad to see you step down, since you seem to have some of the strongest and most transparent principles. I know what you stand for. I can't say the same about the WMF. Good luck! Reaper Eternal (talk) 13:25, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

The emails to Fram mention a whole lot more than just that one diff (and that one diff was actually apart of a series of sustained attacks).

And what are these supposed indications the WMF has suggested Fram did anything off-wiki? This is at best a deliberate misreading of their statement of the obvious - in considering this ban the WMF looked at more than just public information, i.e. they looked at the private places ArbCom discussed his behavior, and for inexplicable reasons, let it slide.

Everything these assholes are doing starts and ends with the presupposition Fram is innocent and there must have been a cover-up. Fuck off. By their own admission, some of your own ArbCom was actually considering opening a case and desysopping the fucker, and the WMF just beat them to the punch and hit him harder is all.

Rule 1 before you start making accusations - get your fucking facts straight.

[Graaf Statler]

The strangest thing of all is people are drawing all kind of conclusions without even knowing the reason why Fram is banned. Mendaliv is complete right, we simple don't know the reason. Even about my own ban I can't say if WMF was right or not, that is the main reason I never have socked. For this reason, I don't even have a clou why they have done that. Maybe if they should tell me the reason I should say that is a damed good one. Because one thing is for sure, special at the end Wikipedia was not good for me.
How can you resign or give your tools back or try to restore Fram his sysop rights if you have not even the slightest idea what is going on?
Very strange.

[CrowsNest]

Well, yes, but here's where Medaliv at al are being so disingenuous. There are very clear differences between your ban and Fram's. You were literally given no reason. Everyone was given examples of the sort of thing it could be for, but with the added reality that they mean nothing because it can also be any reason, including no reason at all.

By contrast, Fram and everyone else have been given reasons, just not specific ones. According to the WMF, whose terms they are, he has violated the Terms of Use, specifically Section 4 "Refraining from Certain Activities", further specifically the "Harassing and Abusing Others" clause, and even more specifically the sub-clause which prohibits "harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism". Qualifying this, it is probably something that features "victims" that have been subject to "hostilities". It has most certainly been "Repeated misconduct within a single Foundation-supported project, with considerable impact either on that project overall or on individual contributors who are active in that project."

Giving further context, we know Fram was the recipient of the "rare" action of an official "Conduct Warning" which "informs the recipient that behavior they may consider acceptable is in fact not, grants them the opportunity to reflect on it, and encourages them to take corrective measures towards mitigating and eventually eliminating it." but which if ignored, can lead to bans. We also know the investigation that led to the ban was triggered by "complaints from the community.", and we know Trust & Safety doesn't like to get involved in matters that can be handled by the community, but will do so when "evidence strongly indicating cases where local communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own autonomous rules but the Terms of Use, too".

While vague enough to protect the privacy of complainents, with further information indeed being withheld to "prioritize the safety of involved parties and legal compliance", these reasons are otherwise detailed enough for people who know Fram and have seen what he does, and seen how the community has failed to hold him to account despite repeated attempts by many people to use the internal systems, to think, yeah, we can see how a responsible corporate department could have arrived at this decision.

Even if you knew nothing of Fram, all the information given by legally accountable corporate officers in this case is sufficient for an unbiased and reasonable observer to conclude that on balance of probabilities, there has been no conspiracy, there has been no incompetence, there has only been the very deliberate act of issuing a ban for harassment, after prohibited conduct continued beyond a warning to stop and after the community was given chances to stop it themselves but did not, pursuant to upholding minimum standards, after legitimate complaints were received.

The only people who would criticize such an action, are people with a biased view of the Foundation, a biased view of Fram, an incorrect belief that Wikipedia is entirely autonomous, or otherwise people with a perception altering brain disease.

Fram has legal recourse. Let him use it, let his friends crowd fund it, if he genuinely thinks he has only been banned because he was a critic of the Foundation and they have lied to the community. He does not, so he will not.

[CrowsNest]

Hilarious. Jehochman has just given the community an opportunity to show it can govern itself, that it can maintain minimum standards.

As I outlined previously as an option.......

A good start in convincing the Feds you can be trusted with any kind of law enforcement, might be to file that Arbitration case you said you were going to file as a Public Prosecutor. No reason why it can't be progressed, the local harassment statute still says what it says, Fram is still capable of submitting evidence in his defence, the community is adamant there is no COI issue with ArbCom sitting in judgement over a vocal critic, and if there even is a policy which says ArbCom is not a moot court, well, given that would be a local policy, you can exercise your local sovereignty to over-ride it, for reasons of national security.

.....he wants an Arbitration Case on Fram to be held in absentia, purely as a way to show what the community would have done had the outcome not been made moot, but also indeed to inform whether or not Fram should be an Administrator from day one of his return, in a year's time. Because you know he's coming back.

The responses are priceless.......

-we can't hear this case because the accusations are stale (sure, but you do accept that Fram's ban is probably based in part on evidence of his misbehavior going back years, and the community's failure to act on it?)

-we can't hear this case, because we don't have all the facts (the rebels have been whining precisely because they think Fram was banned solely on publicly available evidence of his misconduct, and there's nothing to suggest it was not)

-we can't hear this case because it would revictimise victims (what, so now you care?)

-we can't hear this case because the outcome is moot (um, no, the issue of Fram's status post ban, is still live)

-we can't hear this case because it would be too much drama (seriously, you've been trying to avoid drama up to now?)

-we can't hear this case because we are in dialogue with the WMF (huh, so now the WMF do govern what you do and don't do?)

-we can't hear this case because it would just be virtue signalling (sure, but you do accept Fram's ban happened in part due to the community's evident lack of observable virtue?)

-we can't hear this case because it includes allegations that are not harassment (so what? are you seriously claiming the local ArbCom only accepts cases of harassment? fuck off)

So congratulations Jehochman. In trying to show the WMF that the community can be trusted to govern itself, you've merely confirmed what they always thought, and acted upon with this ban.

Just a bunch of immature children, upset that Daddy took away one of their favourite toys, the Fram Hammer.

Fuck 'em all.

[CrowsNest]

. One reason we have kept some vestiges of a "constitutional monarch" system is precisely to have pressure relief valves for highly unusual situations. One reason I haven't tried to be forceful with it is that I don't believe in it as anything other than a safety mechanism. So long as other avenues exist for me to try to help everyone reach reconciliation and find a solution in which almost everyone says "we are now in a better place than we were when this whole mess started" - I'm going to try.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Have you the remotest understanding of the term “constitutional monarch?” Were you in any sense a constitutional monarch this situation would be comparable with the under footman at Buckingham Palace dissolving both Houses of Parliament of his own accord, while Queen Elizabeth sat idly by. All I can see here is a “monarch” failing to understand why the revolting peasants won’t eat cake - and we all know how that sad story ended. Giano (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Your comments are unhelpful and entirely lacking in insight. Please move along and do something else other than insult me, it's boring.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:45, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Predictably, the only observable effect on the community resulting from the separatist's popular revolt, has been to embolden the worst offenders in their community. The literal outlaws. The symbols of what has always really been meant by we want the right to govern ourselves. You want the right to do whatever the fuck you like, safe in the knowledge a cowardly and amoral Administration will stand idly by and do nothing, because the only law that applies in the hoped for Autonomous Republic, is the system of governance that would have absolutely been familiar to those peasants of yore.

Giano casting himself as a mere downtrodden peasant? HA! He's the hand-maiden to one of the biggest Feudal Lords the community has, the one who would be Queen, Bishonen. Even the chamber-maid to his hand-maiden.....

Nobody really believes - well I certainly don't anyway - that there was anything that could be considered "harassment" outside of the snowflake environment of west coast America. Time for some honesty, not more "let's be thoughtful and kind, and just wait until it's all blown over". Eric Corbett 00:48, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

......is a toxic little troll with total immunity from prosecution by anyone except the Queen or her lieutenants.

The little troll has literally violated his personally tailored ArbCom specified 'stop being a troll' sanctions multiple times in recent months. Despite having hundreds of Administrators, every last one has chosen to do nothing. Worse, they literally gave him a free pass after a legitimate report during this controversy (Bishonen dismissing it as trivial, a yes/no test unilaterally redefined as a gradated one by her Majesty, because why the fuck not eh?). This is the failure the WMF has seen. The self-protection, the hypocrisy, the games, the injustice.

In an autonomous Wikipedia, what's stopping this little troll from actually becoming an Administrator? Nothing. He almost became one a decade ago, and the community's standards have only got worse. RexxS was nominated by Bishonen, and he got though with the help of much corruption. And all RexxS is, is a house trained version of Eric. Scratch the surface, and he's the same sort of ugly troll with the same sort of ugly views about how Wikipedia should be governed.

This is where I have sympathy for Fram. When factoring in the 'higher standard' requirement, the conduct of Fram the Administrator is just as objectively bad as Eric Corbett the editor. As standout examples of institutional failure, either both or neither should have been banned in any nominal WMF initiative to reinforce minimal standards in the face of widespread community disinterest, if not cowardice.

[Graaf Statler]

Well, yes, but here's where Medaliv at al are being so disingenuous. There are very clear differences between your ban and Fram's. You were literally given no reason. Everyone was given examples of the sort of thing it could be for, but with the added reality that they mean nothing because it can also be any reason, including no reason at all.

Correct. I got the standard copy past email for Alexander everyone who is banned by the foundation got and never any answer to emails or explanation till the day of today.

Fram has legal recourse. Let him use it, let his friends crowd fund it, if he genuinely thinks he has only been banned because he was a critic of the Foundation and they have lied to the community. He does not, so he will not.

The frustrating part for me is I should desperate want to know what the reason for my ban was, but any legal action in Europe should cause a tremendous amount of collateral damage and I should hit people I don't want to hit at all. Because wikipedia is not a important part of my life, or better except this crazy SanFanBan not a part at all of my life. Because I had left Wikipedia a year before that ban, and I didn't sock there. The few edits I did on the complete abdomen Wikiquote-NL can't be the reason for such a heavy measure. And I had in that time left Wikiquote too.

Basically I am not interesting in there Inclusionism fight with Pirate Party flags as there Wushu Kung Fu weapons in the form from SanFanBans. Because that is where it all about, and someone has to know both the Dutch Wikipedia as the Dutch/Belgium Chapter to understand the background of this incident. But sorry, I am no part of this complete nonsens and want to keep it that way.

Jan Eißfeldt, also called "the Man in Black" in full action

[CrowsNest]

Wikipediocracy has a hard-on for something again.

Yes, Fram said nigger. Yes it was said four weeks ago. Yes it was easily found. And if was found a while ago.

It is no smoking gun.

What is also easily found, is all the other shit he was doing four weeks ago. Namely continuing harassment (as in WP:HARASS) of his perceived enemies, two of which were Arbitrators.

For context......

I was hearing concerns about Fram during the GiantSnowman case and the Rama case which was making me aware that people found his approach unnecessarily harsh. That he used his admin tools to edit through full protection to revert a sitting Arb on an ArbCom page, made me think that it may be appropriate to request a case to look into that and other incidents, and I was considering opening a case as an individual, rather than as an ArbCom member. The Office Action terminated that consideration, so we have been denied the opportunity as a community to openly examine Fram's conduct and see what we can all learn from it.

SilkTork (talk) 08:53, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

SilkTork, who complained about Fram during Rama's case? In-private or am I not spotting anything? WBGconverse 09:37, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Fram's action was discussed on the list, but due to particular logistical reasons, such as low levels of activity of the Committee members meaning it was difficult to get consensus, the matter drifted. The longer it drifted the more difficult it seemed to appropriately respond to the action. SilkTork (talk) 10:06, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

There's your smoking gun.

Complements very well the thoughts of Rschen7754......

[Fram] should have been desysopped and likely banned a while back

You fucknuts should probably spend more time reading, less time sperging. Better yet, just admit you suck at being critics.

Get Steve Pereira in an interview room, get him to release the confidential ArbCom mailing list content regarding Fram. Using this evidence, get all the Arbitrators to take a lie detector test. Are you the TRAITOROUS RAT? You will probable find at least two, if not more.

Stop pretending like the answer to this mystery is locked up in the MiB vaults. It's your own damn elected representatives who are deliberately keeping you in the dark, and using the WMF as an excuse and a shield. As they have always done.

Get a goddamned clue already, you utter retards. I'm embarrassed for you.

[Graaf Statler]

As a white person, I'm not even going to pretend I know a lot about this. I suppose it's possible that I'm wrong in terms of degree about how offensive the word is to black people. But I would also point out that the discomfort I personally feel when it's said around me is serious. Like I don't even want to be associated with the conversation once it goes that way. So in that vein, I could see taking action because the use of the word could be disruptive in that way as well.

America, America and the rest of the world. First, European people are extreem direct, second, being black is no underclass in both in Belgium and Holland. It is something like having red hair, and we are not so easy to insult. We haven't the term nigger, we say neger what is in no way insulting for most black people here. Hij is a neger, you can read it in the newspaper. Of course there are people who find anything insulting, but in general the word neger is no problem at al. For sure Fram didn't mean something insulting with it.
Black people are appreciated in our society and normal civilians, nothing special.

They live most times a normal live together with the other Dutch people. (Exceptions are everywhere, also with white people) And there are not so much pure black people because all the rases are very mixed here. The pure black man and blond white man or woman is hard to find because of the colonial past of Holland and Belgium and the history, we are all kind of mixes with all kind of tints. Much people have Indonesian blood what also give a darker tint, it is not any probelm here.

I see this often, WMF who is with there dominance and one size fits all "solving" all kinds of not exiting problems here in Europe.

[CrowsNest]

Things would move along pretty swiftly away from the issue of what Fram did and toward the issue of what the community can do to avoid future incursions from the "foreign power", if instead of a full Case, a simple question was put to the Arbitration Committee.....

In May 2019, having previously admitted to having fallen below expected standards and improved their behaviour, it appears Fram then regressed in a severe way, resulting in multiple conduct violations in numerous disputes. Was the Arbitration Committee ever made aware of this marked slip backwards in his overall conduct, either through direct observation, or as the result of complaints, resulting in a wider investigation? If yes, what actions were taken in that investigation, and why does the result appear to have been to take no action, not even to transmit privately the Committee's concerns to Fram? If no, why not?

They can answer that question either as a Committee signing off on an agreed statement, or as twelve individual Arbitrators saying who did what and why.

So far, all we've heard is snippets, hints that their likely dysfunction was tied as much to resource issues and communication failures and their renowned prediliction for delay and indecision, as it was a conscious desire to classify Fram's slide back into his old behaviours as not something that should concern the Committee.

Settle this question first, then worry about whether or not what he was doing was harassment, and by whose definition, and what it all means in the wider context.