Fram

Editors, Admins and Bureaucrats Oh my!
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CrowsNest
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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:35 am

This is honestly priceless. The Wikipedians have been SCREAMING that Fram should have been tried by ArbCom, they've insisted all along there cannot be any off-wiki element to this case because Fram says there wasn't, they've been insistent that they must send the WMF a message, and yet right in front of their stupid faces, ArbCom has still decided they want no part of representing their wishes.

They won't accept a case whose outcome would be moot. Why not? Demonstrating your competence and independence, and sending a mesaage, not a good enough reason for you? Got better things to be doing with your time?

They claim they don't have all the information. So what? This is not an exercise in you running the same investigation, this is about how you would have run your investigation. If it doesn't reveal what the WMF know, publicly or privately, then that just means your investigations suck, either at discovery, or in reassuring witnesses it is safe to participate, even as confidential parties.

And of course, they totally dodged the fact Fram's Admin status is absolutely up for discussion in a year's time, and they won't be reviewing any evidence then that isn't already available now. By declining the case, they are basically saying they disagree with his ban.

The most obvious reason why this case was declined as framed, is because they'd have to go over all the evidence that shows who was at fault for why Fram never got scrutinized properly, or was but why it did not result in sanctions, leading to the WMF feeling they had to step in. That includes the ArbCom mailing list.

The Committee wants to reassure everyone however, that they are discussing this issue privately very intensively. I'm sure you are. But to what end?

The guilty parties both for letting Fram off the hook and conversely short-circuiting things and taking it to the WMF, are one and likely more Arbitrators. It's cover your ass time.

The mugs in the community are going along with it. And we see you Black Kite.......he of course sees no merit in a case that would highlight his role in dismissing a comprehensive AN/I report against Fram, in favour of shooting the messenger. A Featured Article writer who stopped editing out of disgust at the way Fram was behaving. The corruption is obvious and ever-lasting. That's Wikipedia self-government.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:32 am

Mendaliv wrote:.....the cause for banning, violation of the "Harassing and Abusing Others" subsection says nothing about civility or rudeness......I think we have a breach of contract here people.
WP:HARASS is defined as a WP:INCIVIL behaviour committed in a certain fashion. Rudeness is one form of WP:CIVILITY.

People who can't read, don't tend to win many legal arguments.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:42 am

https://mobile.twitter.com/krmaher/stat ... 9893460993

:lol:
I am trying to avoid throwing any sort of fuel on any fires here, but it is difficult to view Ms. Maher's tweet as a model of the civility the WMF says it's trying to promote. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:01, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm trying not to laugh at the Elder of Wikipedia's failure to recognize the legal maxim, those in glass houses.......

I mean, for fuck's sake, if anyone has more personal responsibility for how WP:CIVIL is viewed by the community, it is Brad. He's sat on Case after Case where Vested Contributors have been given a free pass for exactly this sort of interpretation of respectful conduct.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:25 am

Social justice global heater Maher with her tremendous carbon footprint is only a algoritme twitter princess and for the rest a big nothing with a big mouth.
And I am really wondering what kind of "lawyer" Newyorkbrad is, because in my opinion not any decent lawyer should be involved in wikipedia.

I simple don't understand this man has connected his name to the complete rotten wikipedia and it's corrupt arbcom.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:33 am

Vigilant wrote:So a police officer stopping a habitual DUI offender would get charged?
You're not going to defend Fram very well by pretending he's something he's not. And a police officer, with all its attendant training and personal responsibility, he is not. Police are allowed to use their own personal judgement to walk the fine line between proactive policing and harassment/profiling, because they are trained, they are managed, and there are safeguards.

Analogies to police work is only going to remind people what the Wikipedia system, in theory and in action, obviously lacks when compared to a properly run police department. Independent investigations. The highest regard for issues of professional conduct. Serious consequences for serious misconduct. Needless to say, potential victims of misconduct are always treated with respect, and are protected from retaliation by the accused or their friends, even though it is accepted many official complaints will be without foundation or otherwise vexatious.

One of the Arbitrators ruling whether or not officer Floquenbeam and Sergeant Bishonen had discharged their weapons without authorization, literally admitted they considered the officers as friends. Have a guess what happens in that scenario, in a properly functioning Police Department?

Obviously we all know what happens in poorly run or even corrupt Police Departments. The difference is, Wikipedians don't have the decency to even act like when they're doing the same, they're doing anything wrong or shameful. It doesn't even cross their minds. Normal, accepted, institutionalized behaviour, is what it is.

It's also worth noting that if Wikipedia Administrators are analogous to a police force, then this Fram thing, this is no ordinary compliance issue. This was Internal Affairs arriving to investigate an entrenched officer in a department riven with corruption, and they were met with officers pointing loaded weapons at them, issuing threats and declarations of their sovereign power to regulate their internal affairs how they see fit.

Fucking mook food this V., as usual. Embarrassed for you.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:08 am

Mendaoliv wrote:I don't think Fram should expect a reasonable person to fear for herself or to suffer emotional harm from being told she's breaking the rules.
And we're back to why the fuck are you talking about things that didn't happen?

Literally nobody but the biggest fuckheads in Wikipedia are arguing all Fram did was tell people they were breaking rules and the reactions from his targets and many colleagues are just ridiculous.

Jesus. NOT EVEN FRAM.......
Looking back at the last few days and the last few months, it is in retrospect obvious that I have crossed the boundary of being blunt but fair (which I usually was for the last ten years) to "being right and being a dick at the same time", as it was succinctly put. Not all the time, luckily, but a bit too often. Starting e.g. an AN discussion about the copyvio's had the best intentions (I really wanted to know how best to deal with this situation), but starting it with a sensationalist headline and so on was never going to help. Some others escalated the situation as well, but I didn't recognise my role in it and was way too fast to bring this here (a mistake I already made a few months earlier, I'm apparently a slow learner sometimes).

I obviously need to dial things back a few notches and rethink some of my approaches. I still think that my underlying motivations were right and my concerns about policy violations generally correct (and e.g. the recent blocks used in the ill-fated desysop attempt at ANI were well-deserved and dealt with in a perfectly normal and appropriate way), but the way I addressed some issues and people was over the top, unnecessarily unfriendly and unconstructive. I'll do my best to work on these things and to again become the "blunt but fair" admin (and editor) I usually was until relatively recently. Fram (talk) 16:54, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
When the defendant describes their own behaviour as dickish and unfriendly, and they have no real record of admitting fault, and could only even be forced to concede this when facing a lengthy local investigation into his record, well, who's gonna be stupid enough to think what he was doing would not, to an unbiased reasonable observer, be considered harassment.

Complainant: I feel threatened and intimidated, like this guy wants me to leave Wikipedia
Defendent: I was just being an unfriendly dick, I have the best of intentions really

In a one off scenario, you maybe give Fram the benefit of the doubt. But we already know Fram has found himself in these scenarios multiple times, and we already know there are Wikipedia Administrators doing the same kind of 'enforcement' as he does, without so much as a hint of controversy over how they treat people.

Come on.

There is a reason why even Arbitrators and Functionaries were saying he was long overdue an ArbCom Case and the outcome would have probably been a ban.

Note that he didn't accuse the people trying to get him banned that time as only doing so because he is a prominent critic of the WMF. Why? Simple. In that case he was being accused by two people who have been equally vicious in their attacks on the WMF. It was local versus local. And specifically, it was establishment assholes versus establishment asshole.

Fram is such an asshole, he is considered beyond the pale even by other Wikipedia assholes.

When faced by a jury of his peers in the local dispute resolution process, he went with the only strategy known to work (well, after straight up denial fails) - offer just a little admission of guilt and a promise to do better, and see if it fools people.

It did fool people. The locals.

The WMF observing from on high, looking for the best example of a local asshole getting away with it to stomp on, not so much.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:03 am

That Gamergste analogy? Well deserved.

For one Tweet, the mob rounded on a women, writing hundreds of angry words, the outrage fueling itself, calling for her resignation, starting hashtags, forcing her to issue a classic I'm sorry you whiny little manbitches were offended by my comment, I didn't have any intention to disrespect you precious sunflowers, please don't kill this uppity women, I sorry, I SORRY, type apology.

You wouldn't believe these are the people trying to pretend Fram isn't an asshole, that he hasn't harassed people, that he hasn't abused his position of power, that they didn't let him get away with it for years because that is their culture.

Fram has literally called his enemies work shit. And that is the least offensive thing he has done. The angry mob Bernstein wrote about, is literally on record not just not condemning it, but defending it, even using the supposed shitness of his targets work to justify them being harassed.

The manchildren do not care. Their offence at Maher's tweet is fake, staged, a performance.

They can't even claim Wikipedians don't routinely use WMF servers to call the work of journalists who write things they don't want to hear, shit, or claim nobody will care about it, because they do. It is a culturally ingrained disrespectful habit the volunteers share with the WMF and even Jimmy. Nothing is ever done about it.

Fuax outrage to misdirect attention away from your own cultural issues? Gamergate.

These people. Playing. With. Fire.

The very worst move for the en.wiki community here, was to bring more eyes to that Bernstein piece, and especially not by being the nasty pieces of shit he describes them as, as they do it. Not even polite calls from en.wiki volunteers for Maher to consider her obligations to reflect on how everything she says potentially reflects on the Foundation she heads, is going to reflect very well on those same volunteers.

Widespread and culturally accepted hypocrisy by those in power is a massive reason as to why intelligent people choose not to engage with Wikipedia. That will be true for the volunteer shop floor as much as it might be for the paid positions.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:15 am

CrowsNest wrote:Widespread and culturally accepted hypocrisy by those in power is a massive reason as to why intelligent people choose not to engage with Wikipedia. That will be true for the volunteer shop floor as much as it might be for the paid positions.

Of course not! Once Sandra in the beginning invited me to come by on the Chapter in Utrecht in De Kroeg, but I have let this cup pass from me. Do me a favour!
Yeh, now my knees and back are worn out, and I have the body of a old man, but it least I have kept my head high despite all the humiliations. And that is for me much more important, because f I ever come in in the hereafter at least I can look both Tolkien and my father strayed in they eyes. Almost anything is for sale except integrity my father always said to me when I was a kid. A lesson I have never forget.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:11 pm

WMF bans bad people.....community not remotely interested

WMF bans Fram.....community erupts like a volcano filled with angry bees

T&S explains ban......community masturbates itself into a frenzy

Jimmy/Board calls for calm......community starts setting fires

ArbCom's role emerges, circles wagons, clears arsonists.....community not remotely interested

Journalist calls volunteers asshole loving trolls, Wikipedia a troglodyte anarchy......community doesn't object

Maher criticizes journalist on Twitter......community tries to lynch her

------

Y'know, I've got no history in PR, but if there really is a conspiracy to build momentum behind efforts to impose Twitter/Fecebook style moderation on the volunteer community, you probably couldn't design something better, as the groundwork phase.

Wikipedia is awash with Foundation backed initiatives, tools and projects all predicated on the fact Wikipedia is institutionally sexist and just generally far too tolerant of assholes and assholery. The mob protested this thesis as vehemently as they are now rejecting the idea they are subservient to the WMF. It didn't matter, because they had no power.

The WMF got where they wanted to be, by using the press and PR and working with only those volunteers who agreed with their findings. You saw what happened when the mob tried to get Doctor Jess Wade to get her text to match her sources and not abuse Wikipedia for advocacy purposes, classic Fram style unpopular but necessary admin work. She was protected. The SJWs fought back. You're literally scared to go near her, because there is already a rather large beachead in your sovereign state, quite a few tanks parked on your lawn, that you don't seem to have noticed at all. The invaders don't work the way the WMF would want, being rather too nasty and militant, and pretty thick, but they certainly have their consent if the alternative is siding with you Traditionalists. You're right to be afraid you are being swept away like the Gamergaters, because you are.

Go on Vigilant. Say some shit about Wade, rile up the Separatist Wikipediots to get her to comply with the Established Order, where might is right, fuck civility. No? Why not? Did the WMF get to you too? You seem to be liking an awful lot of what the WMF do with their powers and influence these days, only disliking things that encroach on your ideas of how Wikipedia can be fixed. Is letting Wade write shitty articles for dubious reasons and dismissing her critics as sexist pigdogs and then being protected by Administrators with deep ties to the wikistate your idea of reform? Seems to be. Doesn't explain your take on the Framban, unless your stance is to just be a sad little troll who goes wherever the drama takes him.

In this context, if there is a conspiracy, if Fram's ban is the work of a Black Ops Unit, the mob has paid scant attention to the timing of the recent launch of "Wikimedia Space", an WMF controlled platform providing a safe space for volunteers to share news and ideas, funded and created by the very things that came about as a result of the prior PR campaign.

Indeed, is this all not just a continuation? Nothing new, just next steps in the masterplan.

Whether this plan is the result of genuine concerns or an evil plot by the SJWs, I'm just gonna put this out there to the holdouts - you've already lost. Just as the Gamergaters lost.

I know addiction prevents you from leaving, but if you stay, well, it doesn't end well for you. There's nobody coming to save you and reimagine the Wikipedia community the way you want it, not in the long term. Queen Bishonen is keeping her head down, she knows her actual limits - beating on locals, rabble rousing, being a Feudal Lord for as long as it takes until the march of history sweeps her away. She won't actually sacrifice anything for this cause. She may even be the only one who survives, cynically rebranding herself as whatever she needs to be to retain the most power, post-Reformation.

Your other shy General Wehwalt has written 50+ Featured Articles. All for free. All released on irrevocable licenses.

As far as the WMF is concerned......

All his base are belong to us.

:ugeek:

FA writer Jaguar had it right. A Wikipedia that claims to be all about the content and fuck the niceties, isn't a Wikipedia that goes all out to pretend Fram wasn't a total fucking asshole who had long ago overstepped his bounds, his crusading unilateral style likely to do more damage to what matters, established editors doing good work. A classic net negative. He retired because you did nothing about Fram. That is what rational people do, when the level of addiction is weak.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:10 pm

eagle wrote:As 21st-century America has fully incorporated women into the workplace, safeguards and behavioral expectations have evolved. On the one hand, the #metoo movement has made it unacceptable for people in roles of power to harass people on the basis o. On the other hand, some charlatans have emerged in organizations seeking to use gender victimhood to advance without merit. The 21st-ccenture American solution for larger organizations has been the HR Department and well-publicized policies against sexual harassment and undisclosed romantic relationships between co-workers. Of course, only the self-governing volunteer editor corps of Wikipedia has been skipped important structural rules and safeguards -- it has advocated "assume good faith" instead of "trust but verify."

Of course is sex or provide sexual favors in exchange for advancement in the workplace very, very wrong and did the #Metoo mouvment a excellent job to make woman, people aware this is absolute unacceptable. There is no discussion about, everyone must feel safe in the society and on the work floor. I stand complete behind them.

BUT. It must not change in professional victimhood what declares and label every clumsy word or fleurt to sexual harresment. Or what Elly did on WMC2017 on the stage telling she had a #Metoo experience with a ex WIR who had said drop dead to her. And later sorry. He said it because she is a immense prutser, what she is. Theobald Tiger will never, never harass any woman just like Romaine never will. And THAT is where I am protesting against all the time. Professional victimhood.

And of course I am not the die hard woman hater what Vig try to make me because out of a peeing woman in toy train.
And I am also old enough, and have seen enough in my life to understand where man and woman are working together things happend what both want. And the best thing you can do in that case is to look to the other way. Because be fair, absolute not everything what happens on the working floor is unwanted by one of the two I am afraid. And who say this is not true is simple a lier.

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