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Re: Fram

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:12 am
by CrowsNest
So, Katherine Maher wants everyone to......
work together to strengthen community self-governance while also cultivating a respectful editing environment that safeguards everyone in the community
Seems to me having the biggest asshole Administrators resigning en masse is a necessary first step. :ugeek:

The remaining rebel Wikipedians are not going to get what they want. They are not the WMF's equals, they will be forced to do what is necessary for to be a place where WP:CIVIL is actually enforced, or they will be ground into the dirt.

I mean, it really can't be fixed, but it will be helpful for future scholars to see the failure of Wikipedia was assuming you can do what they want to do using random volunteers. There needs to be a screening process and a continual filtering mechanism to provide the ecosystem with a robust way to keep people who are not and never will be Wikipedians, out of Wikipedia. Letting obvious assholes rule that repeatedly saying 'fuck off' to other editors is not uncivil, was obviously a stupid move, but it tells everyone how Wikipediocracy failed. It was, after all, just an experiment. The results are in. Toxic.

Wikipediocracy and Wikipedia have of course only just noticed Wnt shouldn't be there. he's made 36,000+ edits over a decade! Here's a handy hint - anyone who let's their talk page grow to 100+ sections, probable isn't a Wikipedian, because they're an asshole. Some of the most loved people in the Wikipedia community, are people who actively try to prevent others communicating with them. That's the complete opposite of what a Wikipedian is supposed to be.

The place has been broken for years.

Needs blowing up and starting again, as they like to say.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:32 am
by CrowsNest
Nothing illustrates the inequality of the volunteer community and the WMF than the fact the former have the spare time to masturbate themselves into a frenzy if their singular view isn't given immediate succour, each whiny little bitch's comment adding fuel to the fire, a feedback loop of screaming and butthurt, and the latter, who don't have the luxury of dropping everything and just giving their personal view.

There is a reason people like this are failures in their personal and professional lives......
WITHIN A WEEK? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:33, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

This is EXACTLY what I mean by "I've bit my tongue" above. This just pisses me off to no fucking end. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:37, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia is meant to be a hobby, not an obsession.

Obsession and addiction cause a loss of perspective, and an effective Wikipedia Administrator, or even just a regular Wikipedian, is a person who doesn't lose their crackers over nothing.

Fram getting banned for a year for harassment, behaviour which continued after warnings, is nothing. The fact it had to be the WMF to do it because the community and ArbCom kept ducking their responsibilities is something, but it isn't everything.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:43 am
by CrowsNest
I mean, seriously, take a look at WP:ADMIN. That's the community approved manual.

If that were actually being followed, it should not be THIS EASY to find evidence that Administrators like Floquenbeam, the people committing "civil disobedience" against their WMF Masters, are just complete and total assholes.....
TRM, to be fair, I think Doc James does care - deeply - about, but he's just one of 11 people on the board, and 10 don't (well Jimbo does, but only to the extent that he wants it to all go away). I don't think 1 week is his idea, because it is ultimately not up to him; it's probably his estimate of how long it will take. It's obviously insufficient for me, but I don't blame Doc James for the 3 week delay. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:52, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
It is not wise to let children run your website.

Badly behaving children is a very apt way to look at the rebel community right now - stamping their feet and screaming their heads off, breaking their own toys and furniture, demanding restitution right this minute, having literally no awareness of the concepts of cause and effect and personal responsibility. All directed at the people who have paid for the roof over their head from the moment they were spawned.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:46 am
by Graaf Statler
CrowsNest wrote:So, Katherine Maher wants everyone to......
work together to strengthen community self-governance while also cultivating a respectful editing environment that safeguards everyone in the community
Seems to me having the biggest asshole Administrators resigning en masse is a necessary first step. :ugeek:

That is a thing what is for sure.
The place has been broken for years.

Needs blowing up and starting again, as they like to say.

There are only two solutions, options. Or to wait till governments or even whole continents will close the place what already has happend in China and Turkey (and will happend in the EU too, listen very, very careful what uncle Alex Vos had to say to them), or they blow it up themself and make a new start before others blow them up. But blown up they will be, that is for one thing what is for sure and it is a good start to put yourself the house on fire.

Can't wait to see when they put WP-NL on fire, but they have to rush before I do it. Because I am really pissed off about the way they have treaded me.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:49 pm
by Graaf Statler
Carcharoth wrote:

Second question (especially directed at Mendaliv and any others with legal knowledge). If an editor received a WMF conduct warning, what would you advise them to do (e.g, go public on-wiki?) and what legal options (if any) do they have? Same question if an editor is hit with a FRAMBAN (i.e. a ban short of a global ban)? And does being a US citizen or non-US citizen make any difference (please consider UK and EU citizens if possible).

mendaliv wrote:

I really can’t answer this without it being legal advice. All I can say is that there is probably no legal reason why you can’t publicize your conduct warning. However, bear in mind that they might see it as a reason to discipline you further (cf. the Romaine event ban that followed him calling out T&S at an event).

Same for any TOU-based ban. I think if it’s completely groundless there might be a breach of contract action (the Fram one might be for example because they’ve publicly admitted it was for civility reasons, which is plainly not in the TOU). I think there’s even something there in Abd’s approach (libel lawsuit) except that he’s completely bottled it by not using a lawyer.

As to differences overseas... I don’t really know. Generally US courts have a rep for being very plaintiff-friendly. So it may be a consideration. That said, foreign courts may be faster, and more unexpected for WMF. The Canadian court gimmick mentioned elsewhere may be good (because Canada doesn’t always honor forum selection clauses like in the US). And the libel approach might work better in the UK given their reputation. And there could be some GDPR approach if WMF fucked up somehow, but I know nothing about GDPR.

The short answer: If you’ve been warned or banned, talk to a lawyer. Also if you’re subject to a WMF NDA seek independent legal counsel about what you’re able to disclose. That’s actually advice I’d give to all arbs right now as well. You might not be as bound to silence as you think.

I think this decision of a Dutch court is a great t example how unpredictable our European courts are. ...

De islamitische moeder die een schadevergoeding eiste van de Haagse Maria Montessorischool omdat haar kinderen door het offerfeest niet op de klassenfoto staan, krijgt 500 euro schadevergoeding toegewezen van de rechtbank Den Haag.

Google translate wrote:The Muslim mother who demanded compensation from the Maria Montessori School in The Hague because her children are not on the class photo due to the sacrificial celebration, will receive 500 euros compensation from the court in The Hague.

Is anything written is our law about the annual class photo? No. Or the sacrificial celebration in relation of the annual class photo? No. The mother asked for 10.000 euro, why did she get 500 euro? Why not 1000 euro? or 5000 euro? Or nothing? The lord and the judge may know, there is not any actual damage.

And so there are many, many examples of unwritten law. Law causes are compering to America very, very cheap, sometimes you don't even have to be a licensed lawyer or need one. Or get financial state support. The term jurist is unprotected, there are good ones and bad ones. Everyone can claim he or she is a jurist, and there are many levels of education. A ToU can be be rejected by a judge. Honour and reputation are extreem important, deformation is even a crime.

In general is the advice of mendaliv to consul a local lawyer, a advocaat of a established law firm the best one if you want to be sure you get a real solide advice. Because the legal common law system of America and the legal system of the different country's of continental Europe are complete different.

And my personal advice to UK and EU citizens is be careful. Be careful not to get involved legal in the FramBan, special if you are a Arb or sysop. Or ask otherwise first legal advice. look before you leap, because all those SanFanBan's are a legal minefield.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:14 am
by badmachine
Somewhere, Lila Tretikov is laughing her ass off. :lol:

Re: Fram

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:26 am
by CrowsNest
This is what Wikipedia self-governance is all a about....Administrator Dennis Brown has crawled back to Wikipediocracy, the rock that has kept his sorry ass safe and protected before (don't get your tongue too dirty Vigilant), to post garbage like this......
Speaking of her, she may be capable (or not), I really do not know. But it does seem odd to put a 36 year old in charge of what is essentially a multi-multi-million dollar corporation. In the business world, this would be a very rare thing. Nothing against young people, but most corporations want lots of real world experience in the person leading the organization, and it is very difficult to obtain that information and experience in your 30s. I fear that is part of the problem, an absolute lack of experience in dealing with problems from the leadership. Her age doesn't show me this, her actions do.
Seriously? You don't know, but you just happen to think a woman in her thirties wouldn't be able to handle an executive role?

I am shocked. The Wikipedia Administrator who found common cause with some of the worst women haters on Wikipedia, who previously quit before when it was becoming too much about the politics (i.e. the gender of editors), it turns out he's a big fat sexist pig. WHO KNEW?I

I DID. Got banned from Wikipediocracy for saying it, in the most politely of terms. Too "hostile" for those brave investigators. Banned for hurting Dennis Brown's feelings. Dennis never did have any character. Our exchanges there showed it, the lying sniveling cowardly shit couldn't hide behind the local's skirts fast enough.

It takes balls, as a failed light bulb salesman in his twilight years, to actually say Maher isn't doing her job. So he doesn't do it. Too scared to. Might even think it might stop him getting his tools back. The prick probably has no fucking clue what the job actually even entails. Hint: she's not at the beck and call of every little pissant volunteer who is angry that an asshole Admin got canned because of the WMF's renewed interest in enforcing the no asshole rule. Something that was theoretically the job of Wikipedia Administrators, until assholes like Dennis got promoted.
To answer the unasked questions: I have no regrets in handing in the bit, I don't expect to ask for it back unless some radical changes take place, and if changes don't take place, I'm already packing up my desk in the event I need to retire. I'm a busy business owner, and frankly, all this drama has already taken up too much of my time and energy.
You don't have a desk, and you're not retiring from any job. You're just (most likely temporarily) stopping the hobby you have, as you have done before when your wife cleaned you out, and you suddenly realized you had more pressing priorities.

Dennis Brown is basically just jealous. Offer him a lucrative post at the WMF tomorrow, perhaps the surely soon to be created Community Ambassador, he would snap your damn hand off.

Fucking buffoon.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:47 am
by CrowsNest
More classic Dennis....
That is part of the problem, the Foundation has a serious lack of clue when it comes to dealing with the community. Zero empathy.
No rational right thinking person has empathy for people who, when faced with difficulty in applying the no asshole rule to popular assholes, choose to simply pretend the rule does not exist for popular assholes.

It exists. It is official English Wikipedia community approved policy. Shitbirds like you have simply not been enforcing it.

Right thinking people only have empathy for the victims. Like the two different people Eric Corbett recently told to fuck off in the space of a week, pre-FramBan. Slam dunk violation of standing ArbCom sanctions. Ignored by the Administration, and presumably by this ArbCom, who no longer want to enforce the standards laid down by its predecessors.

You're getting off lightly, all things considered, given how bad the stench of rot has become.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:59 am
by CrowsNest
More faux-lawyer blah blah from Mendaliv.....
I'd be fine with paid admin consultants—say, people who volunteer admins could call in for support or use to recommend complex cases to. In fact, one of the "model" ArbCom replacements I've brainstormed in the past utilized paid professionals to manage the procedural aspects and to give the arbitrators statements of law/policy. Sort of like how professional licensing boards have staff attorneys, since they're generally not lawyers.

Another thing I was thinking about awhile back was using something like a professional arbitrator to manage the policy aspects of the cases and have the actual ArbCom make the findings of fact, like a jury. Or, again, like a licensing board uses administrative law judges, have a professional draw up a report that consists of findings of fact and conclusions of policy, and have the Committee itself approve/reject the report and make decisions on remedies in light of that report.
The problem is not that volunteer Arbs didn't see Fram's behaviour had crossed the line of policy. The problem came in that those who did, were either too scared of the consequences to do the necessary, or seemed to genuinely believe that if the community no longer cares it means they don't need to either, or otherwise demured for ridiculous procedural reasons that, if you really need paid professionals to point out, means a volunteer run Wikipedia is a lost cause. I've never been an Arb, but even I know the case doesn't need to be named Fram for him to get sanctioned, he merely needs to be a named party. Which he was.

Don't waste money paying people to help volunteers do what is frankly pretty fucking simple from a policy/procedural perspective, just ensure the volunteers at the top have the backbone, and the executive backing, to be able to go the right thing.

Given their role and responsibilities, more than one Arbitrator shares MAJOR culpability for FramBan. Hence why they're hoping the community carries on venting their spleen at the WMF.

Re: Fram

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:06 am
by CrowsNest
Reaper_Eternal@WO wrote:A plan I'm tossing around, should the WMF continue fiddling while the project & community burn, is to hide the fundraising banners when they next go up. It shouldn't be too hard to do via editing MediaWiki:common.css (T-H-L) and MediaWiki:common.js (T-H-L).

Putting the brakes on the gravy train should certainly force some sort of response.
Um, are you looking for a response different to them reactivating Super-Protect?

They deactivated that part of the Death Star precisely because they were persuaded the community were rational people, who could be trusted not to fuck with the Warp Core just because they got given the wrong colour uniforms.

You're all red shirts btw. If you didn't already know it.