Fram

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CrowsNest
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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:24 am

Mendaliv wrote:Shit has to be disrupted somehow. If they don't experience a significant drop in funds raised, they'll never learn from this.
Sorry, but a lawyer this retarded, shouldn't be able to work (and the time they seem to have to devote to wiki bulshit suggests they don't!).

What probably costs the WMF more money? Being seen as soft on harassers, or being lenient on the community that seems to not have a problem with them being Administrators?

It's already out there in a reliable source, Fram was widely seen an "asshole" and he got banned by the WMF for being an asshole after it seemed like the community wasn't bothered and he wasn't responding to conduct warnings, and now the so called community is really mad, because, well, some stuff. Stuff that is at best incomprehensible to normal people.

Anyone even thinking of going down this route, have you seriously not noticed how much of the press coverage about how Wikipedia needs to be tougher on harassment, comes from volunteers?

Turn this into a public relations war, and the Separatists will be absolutely destroyed. Much of that fire won't even be at the direction of the WMF, whose head is of course a PR monkey.

You really should have paid more attention to Jess Wade and her Twitter fans. You underestimate the cluelessness of the general public, particularly the activist fringes, about things that Wikipedians just assume are widely known basic and obvious facets of their cult (such as this idea they are genuinely self-governing).

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Graaf Statler
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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:27 am

CrowsNest wrote:Don't waste money paying people to help volunteers do what is frankly pretty fucking simple from a policy/procedural perspective, just ensure the volunteers at the top have the backbone, and the executive backing, to be able to go the right thing.

Given their role and responsibilities, more than one Arbitrator shares MAJOR culpability for FramBan. Hence why they're hoping the community carries on venting their spleen at the WMF.

Exacte! And by real professionals, and not by fucking pirate shit lawyers like Jan Gerlach with there free source bullshit!

Mark the empty chairs in front, and why not a pirate flag next to the American flag?

https://twitter.com/pd_w/status/1144587130024398848

Jan? Jan, is there something in that name? I am Jan and I am a pirate? Fuck off with your bullshit, both of you Jan Gelach and Jan Eißfeldt, you are both incompetent as hell! Just like that IC layer Engelfriet who was not at all licensed in the beginning.
When he started to advice WP-NL he was not licensed, he got his master in 2008, years later! With some evening course on De open Universiteit!

Copyvio is something like a bicycle without a tail light he wrote not long ago on his blog. Well Arnoud, the fine for no tail light is 55 euro, and I guarantee you for copyfraud you don't get away with 55 euro! And also not for copvio. And of course you could be mad at the judge in De rijdende rechter, but the judge was advised by a real professor. Someting you will never reach with your IC bullshit you are proclaiming now for years!

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:57 am

This is Wikipedia Administration in action.
I'll state that I do not condone – and never have – misogyny, homophobia and transphobia, even under the guise of humour, and I hope you know that, Fae. However, given the current situation where the Trust and Safety team has arrogated the authority to accept complaints about abuse and harassment, and then act as investigator, prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner without allowing defence or appeal, I won't be taking any actions related to those sort of issues. I suggest you contact the T&S team to see if they are willing to act on your complaint. --RexxS (talk) 14:52, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
This piece of shit is trying to use a warped interpretation of FramBan to genuinely argue that even though he is supposedly an all round good guy, there is some reason he didn't block Giano for openly transphobic commentary, other than the obvious......

......in the fucked up culture of en.wiki, a user nominated for Administrator by Bishonen is not going to and never would warn much less block Giano, Bishonens's favourite user (the user at the heart of her show-down with Jimmy Wales), for anything.

He's not alone of course. All the scumbag Administrators are guilty of the same. Drmies said he would have warned Giano for it, but didn't, because reasons.

Yes. There are always reasons.

Interestingly though, presumably the privileges of monarchcy, the Queen does not even have to give reasons. Her Royal position was made clear to the peasants.......
I will not comment on what Giano said ...... I decline to comment on it.
I mean, come on. She's got no business opining on what should be done about it due to her massive WP:INVOLVEMENT, but to consider your friendship so important you don't even want to say if your friend just said a transphobic thing on Wikipedia?

This isn't a surprise. Several times Bishonen has said things to the effect of, I value my friendships with certain Wikipedia users above my nominal obligations as a Wikipedian. If I ever had to choose, I would choose the former, not the latter.

At least Fram was never guilty of that. Hence why he has few (none?) genuine wiki-friends, just people willing to offer grudging respect for acting on what he believed was in the best interests of Wikipedia at all times.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:16 pm

Spot the novice poster on Wikipediocracy.... :lol:
It's asking a lot, I know, but leaving aside who she works for, who she sleeps with, her basic lack of competence as an editor, her track record as a trouble maker - was she hounded / bullied / harassed by Fram?
The Wikipediocrats will dance around the only answer a serious critic forum would just know. It is the entire credo of the separatist wing that there is always something that can be used to justify a Wikipedian's harassment of a fellow Wikipedian, as long as it stops short of them turning up at every place their victim is just to insult them. And if it's a sufficiently popular perpetrator, I've even seen them try to excuse that.

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Re: Fram

Post by Carrite » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:18 pm

CrowsNest wrote:Turn this into a public relations war, and the Separatists will be absolutely destroyed. Much of that fire won't even be at the direction of the WMF, whose head is of course a PR monkey.


Wikipedia is what has the public goodwill, not the faceless corporation in San Francisco.

The story of oppressed volunteers and greedy bureaucrats doesn't necessarily end the way you think.

t

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:25 pm

Oops. Floquenbeam may just have had a tiny little heart-attack.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =904155141

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:25 pm

Timmy Tim" wrote:Wikipedia is what has the public goodwill, not the faceless corporation in San Francisco.

The story of oppressed volunteers and greedy bureaucrats doesn't necessarily end the way you think.

You bet I will put it on fire! Just licht one corner in the correct way, and the whole dammed fire pill burns down, Timmy.
Breaking laws and pirate flags are not appreciated here Timmy, and unacceptable. Or take the whole shit pill with you to America and block Europe, also fine.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:58 pm

Carrite wrote:Wikipedia is what has the public goodwill, not the faceless corporation in San Francisco.
The idea that harassment is wrong is what the general public has previously thought was the view of the community. By all means, educate them on why, in certain predictable circumstances, it has been excused or ignored. We'll see how much goodwill you are left with then.

I mean, do you even understand this basic point - a cold reading of WP:ADMIN, WP:HARASS and WP:CIVIL won't leave the general public in any doubt that Fram should have been banned a long time ago, and that he was not has to indicate something is seriously wrong in Paradise.

We know what went wrong. Even in this specific case, we can see who dropped the ball and why, and how the precious community is of course choosing to ignore the people who are really to blame because they're just volunteers. It's mommy and daddy's fault AGAIN. Quel surprise.

Let's hear what you would say to Joe public win them over to your side. Come on Timmy, give us all a laugh.
Carrite wrote:The story of oppressed volunteers and greedy bureaucrats doesn't necessarily end the way you think.
And I've been wrong when exactly?

Being a serious critic isn't just about telling people what you think. It's about making informed predictions based on the evidence.

Name a single time the community has won a battle with the Foundation (or Jimmy) once it reached the point of eliciting public sympathy. All of the community's dirty little holding actions have been done under the cloak of darkness, like the filthy subversives you've always been, the general public entirely unaware of what is done by who and why.

As in the grand tradition of those dirty little commie bastard's you seem to like writing about so much, the general public will only be informed the revolution has been successful in all its strategic aims, precisely when their opinion on it will be moot.

There are those who claim their mission is to shine a light on it all. I think their torch is broken.

HTD.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:25 pm

Listen, listen Timmy. Writing a reference work supported with donor money is not celebrating the victory's of the trolls. That is not the task of a foundation. Or at least if they not want to end up with pitch and feathers in a European jail.
I think I have draw the past years a good picture of what happens with all that cups of coffee on this side of the ocean, and Crow has done the same what happend on the other site of the ocean. All good documented.
Well, if you was that foundation, what would be your choice, Timmy?

I think WMF has never realised themself how dangers this game was before, and otherwise they know that now after the words of Alex Voss.
A foundation is not going to play Russian roulette to save the digital life of a few free loaders and frustrated shit heads, Timmy, that is not how things work in real life.
A foundation with a turn over from 100 million is iceberg, Tim. And the lawyers of WMF know exacte what is going on and that I give them the space they need to manoeuvre, because that is the true, Timmy.

It is like what my friend Abd always say, the hardest way is the most easy at the end.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:41 pm

ArbCom have written an open letter to the BoT.

Puts all of the blame on the Foundation. :roll:

Conveniently ignores every aspect where they specifically have done things wrt Fram which have led to this crisis, as I've detailed at length. Right up until the last moment, the crisis could have been avoided if they had not royally screwed up (or more likely deliberately chose to stand aside and let Daddy handle business). If they were going to write this letter, it would have been written before FramBan, because they were aware it was about to happen, and thus had every opportunity to learn whether the WMF really were going to just go over their heads, and if so, why.

No mention at all as to why this statement is not unanimous, signed by only 9 of their full complement of 12, the community having been recently informed that even 'inactive' Arbs cannot be presumed to be out of the loop or otherwise unprepared to put their cross to an important matter of state.

By now, it has got to be obvious that one prominent no show, AGK, is the DIRTY RAT TRAITOR. The tenor of this letter is such that it has to be the case he will have been asked to resign by his colleagues, and he has to have refused, on basic fucking principle that they put him in the position of having to go over their heads and he has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, given his first and only duty is to the protection of the community as a whole.

A community which on paper at least still has a no assholes rule and where every editor is equal under the wikilaw, with Administrators held to a higher standard under said law. So with Fram already having admitted he had been an unconstructive dick to avoid an investigation by ArbCom in March 2018, you can only guess what sort of low life scum the ArbCom think it is OK to have stinking up the community (see Giano, or Eric Corbett, or The Rambling Man).

We cannot know for sure if this is what has happened as they drew up this letter, because, as has been known all along, ArbCom is actually more prone to secrecy and self-protection than the WMF.
However, despite requests, we have not seen any indication that Fram’s case falls into one of the categories of issues that T&S normally handles, otherwise lies outside of our remit, or was handled by them due to a lack of trust in our ability to handle harassment cases.
The lying bastards. They have been specifically and repeatedly told FramBan was in part due to the realization en.wiki either could not or more likely would not handle cases like this in a satisfactory manner.
However, if the WMF have also been concerned about ArbCom’s ability to handle harassment complaints, they have not communicated this concern with us, nor have they provided any suggestions for changing our policies or procedures.
Well, putting aside for a moment the many years long press and outreach campaign arguing that the community is too toxic and seems unable to fix the problem, the not so subtle call for action being to replace the existing community with better people, who actually says the handling of Fram wasn't the first time the WMF started to have serious concerns?

And to state the fucking obvious, a genuinely self-governing community should not need to be told where it is falling down wrt to pretty stable and constant global standards (equality, respect), nor would it react very kindly to the "foreign" power's suggestions of how they might get their affairs in order.

The WMF can only control their own policies. They made a change to reflect their concerns and give them some way to deal with a Fram type scenario. It was communicated to the community, and they showed their characteristic disinterest in what is happening outside the narrow confines of their little village.

The response should be short and sweet - no, you're not special, we won't be treating you as such, you will be informed of global changes in approach the same way every other stakeholder is, and you can register your thoughts and objections the way everyone else has to. The power to act where we see your community is failing, will be retained. This is not negotiable. If you claim sole competency in these areas, then have at it. It has no basis in the legal relationship between us and the community, it is hypocritical in the extreme given you don't want to handle all threats (and you have been told many times how seriously we take harassment). But yes, if it can be shown threats are localised to en.wiki, by all means try your best to make whatever changes you think are needed to prevent us having to act in future. But be in no doubt, given the level of contempt you have shown us, up to and including pretending you haven't been given sufficient information to understand our position, there will be no further input from us. WP:DFTT, as you put it. You are on your own. We will remember this when we are considering how to allocate grant money. And if your load times reduce, well, we're sure that will just be a complete coincidence.

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