Fram

Editors, Admins and Bureaucrats Oh my!
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CrowsNest
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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:27 pm

Mendaliv wrote:When ArbCom gets jurisdiction kicked back to them over Fram, which I believe they will, they should open a Fram conduct cas
They have always had jurisdiction. There is no reason for them not to take a case right now. That they have not, only weakens the argument that en.wiki is self-governing. And it will be weakened even further if they only do so once they are somehow given leave to from a "foreign power".

It has been suggested they don't have all the information on which to conduct a case. That is one of many self-serving lies they have told. The only information that could be, is the testimony of witnesses who either tried and failed to persuade ArbCom to act, or simply don't trust them. The biggest pile of potentially unseen evidence, is in ArbCom's own offices.

What exactly is the status of the emails of a now vanished former Arb? Just one of many questions the Founding Fathers of this Revolutionary State have not thought about, because they know as much about self-government as they do about encyclopedia writing.

But as Fram and countless Separatists have told everyone who would listen, all evidence that might have or could ever convict him, is public. And believe me, when that case is eventually opened, a veritable horde awaits, to present it all.

Of course, the idea a case about Fram will only be about Fram, is a bit of a dirty trick to play on the innocent citizens of the People's Republic of Wikistan too. There is a good chance there will be more Arbs who have to recuse, and might even be parties, than might actually be able to hear the case.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:49 pm

These fucking people......
I would be extremely interested in the number of threads raised at AN and ANI which claim harassment, over, say, the past two years, because we need some sort of baseline for what is about to happen... You see, what is clear now, from the way T&S have fucked this case up beyond any possible recognition, is that every administrator is likely going to be repeatedly accused of harassment by any users who they warn or sanction for breaking our policies and guidelines. T&S have likely ushered in an era where generally vacuous allegations will become nothing more than a means to win various content disputes or to avoid editing sanctions. The desperately sad thing about this is that any new user reporting system will drown under these fake reports, and we risk witnessing the genuine, infrequent but significant and serious harassment issues that do occur going unnoticed and unresolved as everybody who is given a well deserved bollocking for repeatedly uploading copyright violations or frequently making BLP violations squeals harassment. Nick (talk) 07:40, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Since when was it uncommon for misconstrued if not utterly groundless accusations of harassment to surface at AN/I? And since when have you people been able to cope with them in an efficient manner? Not very efficient, sneering and mocking and making cracks about Australian hunting weapons, is it? Creates lots of new sock trolls to keep you busy, but you never seem to learn, even though your own policies lay it all out for you, in English. You speak English, right, mother-fucker? How could a dedicated reporting system possibly fail to be more efficient than that?

And more importantly, on what fucking basis do you claim Fram has been banned simply because he warned or sanctioned users for breaking policies of guidelines? You don't know, there's several reasons to think otherwise, and yet it doesn't stop you mouthing off like you do. Like you really think the WMF are just that stupid, or more likely from a tinpot piece of crap like you, that corrupt.

Oh, and final thought - look up the definition of "bollocking", have a look at WP:ADMIN, and consider if aggressive shitlords like yourself have not played your full part in the en.wiki Administrative culture being seen as out of control and in need of externally induced correction.

The WMF sent you a message. The darkness is within you. Wikipedia was never conceived as your parade ground or wrestling ring. You're a goddamned janitor, not the law. You're the cancer. They're the chemo. Prepare to be flushed. Better yet, flush yourself, since you sound like one of the whiny little bitches who threw in his rusty Sheriff's badge on protest at being reminded of the no assholes rule.

Oh wait, you already did!

The treatment works..... :lol:

HTD.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:00 pm

Beside I am convinced WMF has overseen what this message should cause and because of that they knew this would happen I think it is for WMF impossible to stap back in this stage. I am pretty sure they have thought this very good over and even the University of Atlanta is involved.
If they should now stap back they lose any control over the communities for ever and It should change them in total anarchie with as only possibility to shut them down.
But as I said before this is not enough, this is only the start. To fix the project are draconic messages necessary.

This is only a start and they are already crying there eyes out of there heads, wonder what happens by the next steps what for sure will follow.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:59 pm

aggie wrote:It's all nonsense. Nobody is suing anybody. Fram has no damages. Even if he did, the WMF can choose to throw abusive users off its website at will. In fact, half the country would probably applaud them for standing up to harassment and toxic web culture. Show a normal person the "Fuck ArbCom" diff. They'll say, "Sure, ban that guy."

Fram to court? Not a single change, not i Europe and not in America. Indeed, there is not any damage and he has clearly misbehaved himself.
Abd is different because of that list and me too because I was a user only on the Dutch wiki and my username is published too on that list. Special because WMF has both a chapter and an server in Holland the case would be extreme promising. But promising what. As told before the only succesfull should be causing a inferno because the compensations in Holland are extreme low.

It should only be the fun of burning everything down and I doubt very much if that should be fun. Till now my conclusion is it is no fun at all for me.
It is only a lot of trouble for nothing.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:19 pm

Now in Slate, which is unsurprising as they have been running a series of articles that basically critique Wikipedia in depth, but are inherently biased because they only ever seem to speak to middle of the road Wikipedians or the WMF, and so there is always a presumption that if there's a problem, it can be fixed.

As such, it comes down hard on the objectors, makes them look like a right bunch of assholes. Exposes the bankruptcy of their position very well, particularly this.....
Wikipedians will say that their project is not an experiment in democracy or a form of government. But theories about the rule of law, due process, or the assumed constitutional monarchy of Jimmy Wales are often employed in debates. Terms like “project governance” are often just shorthand for wikipolitics, and political opinions vary.
The angry mob can shout down or even scare away unpopular or unpalatable opinions on WP:FRAMBAN, but they can't stop them finding their way into the press, especially if they stand out as rare voices of dissent. Jorm, Rob, the Twitterverse, WMDC all feature in the piece, as well of course as the obligatory press release from the WMF.

By contrast, despite the (really really bad) factoid that the angry mob has quickly spun up more words on this than a Game of Thrones novel, the article only has Jimmy Wales as a named person giving any kind of statement as to why they are mad. Other than that, it just refers to them as, well, the mob. Oh, and a "veteran Wikipedia editor", who presumably remained anonymous because he either doesn't exist, or is too ashamed to give his identity.

People will come away from that article thinking, right, so all these people are angry, but other than unbanning an asshole so he can be rebanned by the people who dropped the ball the first time around, what are their actual demands? It really does fuck the rebels in the ass on that score - they obviously know what they don't want, but on the thorny issue of how to handle harassment, their only big idea seems to be to persist with a system that is clearly not working for anyone except, well, them.

This is what I meant when I said the revolution will absolutely fail if it turns into a PR war. Maher already has the media. These are people who had a press release ready for The Guardian about how the Wikipedians banned the Daily Mail, before the Mail even knew it was banned. This is what they do. If you can't fix anything, just get good at convincing people you're trying, and if you could keep giving them money while they do so, that would be just super!

Anyway, FRAMBAN has in depth secondary coverage in two reliable sources now. You know what that means!

It is worth noting that despite both sources being not remotely favourable to the Separatists, what little Wikipedia coverage FRAMBAN has, is entirely biased to the angry mob's viewpoint.....
On 10 June 2019, the English Wikipedia administrator Fram was banned by the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) from editing the English Wikipedia for a period of 1 year. According to Joseph Bernstein of Buzzfeed News, this took place "without a trial", and WMF did not "disclose the complainer nor the complaint" to the community.[329] Some in the editor community expressed anger at the WMF not providing specifics, as well as skepticism as to whether Fram deserved the ban. A second administrator unblocked Fram, later citing "overwhelming community support", but the WMF reblocked Fram. A third administrator then unblocked Fram. Three weeks after the ban of Fram, 21 English Wikipedia administrators had resigned.[330]

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:00 pm

mendaliv wrote:Any other journos lurking?

What do you think yourself, mendaliv? And of course Katherine has the media and is there not any sympathy for this assholes. And there "revolution" will absolutely fail.
And if it can be fixed? At least they can try it and keep it under control, because if this is running complete out of control I don't know where it ends up.
But I don't consider that as my problem or responsibility, I have not any intention ever to return.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:10 pm

Get a live Vig, you are a born loser. You gambled and lose, not my mistake, sorry for you, I have not any active roll in this whole thing. Only being there is a crazy reason to blame someone.
Be a man and take your loses and don't try to blame a old man who has worked his whole life hard for your one bot blunders.

i am not afraid for you and I will never be. You are the one who fears me, mister arrogant big mouth.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:57 pm

Jimbo is so naive sometimes. Got bounced by a couple of hysterics claiming the controversy was still raging, flare ups occurring every few hours, as a pretext for getting him to promise the long awaited Board statement would be forthcoming in a few hours. And of course it hasn't happened. More ammunition.

If Jimmy had bothered to look, he'd see the controversy has all but fizzled out. The Separatist's only hope at this point seems to literally be if Jimmy has managed to persuade the Board to give in, as he keeps trying to hint he has done.

If the Board has been paying even less attention to the details as Jimmy, either this statement is going to absolutely bomb, satisfying nobody, or it is going to make a major mistake, like leading the WMF down a path where they have to admit complaints submitted to T&S are no longer guaranteed to be confidential, or something else equally daft.

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Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:08 pm

Yeh, you are right about Jimmy. And if they drop a few other shitboms like this at least the place cleans up a bit. Perfect will it never be, but at least the worst rubbish is cleaned up in this way.
The fire is extinguished, in a few days the rest has returned.

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Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:19 am

Board Statement.

Total capitulation. Nothing but restatement of things the community already knew and have long ignored, and will continue to ignore, no matter what.

The T&S Department is out of the detoxification business, and can't get back in until the community ratifies what they will be doing. So that will go precisely nowhere. After six months of whatever, it will be convenient for all to simply forget T&S was ever supposed to be allowed back in at all.

The toxic members of ArbCom are now emboldened in its new found role as the toxic community's representatives in their fight against Foundation incursion, and so it is just as likely they will unban Fram as a show of strength, than they will do as the statement implies and come to the only conclusion the evidence and existing policy demands - one year ban, no appeal.

Whoever suggested the idea of offering training, they have clearly not understood the problem at all. The community know what existing policy already says to do, they either just don't want to do it at their very core, or are too afraid to do it. That just gets truer the higher up the food chain you go, the exceptions being truly noteworthy. No training fixes that, you can't train a backbone, or a conscience.

A statement like this, with no clear pathways or deliverables, is particularly ignorable by people who have already shown remarkable levels of indifference and intransigence to all manner of directives that basically said the same shit for the same reasons.

Worst of all, if this statement was meant to reinforce the fact this whole affair was meant to be a wake up call to usher in a bright new day full of learning about cool stuff like how not to be a dick and be nice to people, well, you do actually have to have some clear plan of what you're going to do if the call fails, and the child just goes back to sleep again.

What is the plan, when, in six months time, fuck all has actually changed? Not even Fram's approach or the community's reaction to it. An example? You might just have created a monster. He will be front and center in every discussion, shit-posting at every proposal, marking his regained territory like a strutting peacock. An actual fucking Wikipedia Administrator.

When the holy fuck are these people ever going to learn? Doing the same shit over and over again......ah fuck it, why even WASTE THE WORDS.

Those who were hoping for reform, just leave. Leave and never look back. There's no support for your cause, not even at the highest levels.

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