Fram

Editors, Admins and Bureaucrats Oh my!
User avatar
Graaf Statler
Side Troll
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm

Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:10 am

TDA on Dysk discord pointed on this topic on WP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ate_banned

And this was really a great posting.

Well, if GW does not wished to be alarmed, she should stop making stupid straw man interpretations of what people are saying. "Wikipedians can harass other Wikipedians as much as they like, as long as it's not happening on-wiki." said no one ever. Star chamber proceedings make folks uncomfortable; "ensuring participation and transparency is crucial for maintaining the stability of self-governing communities," said Schroeder and Wagner, [1] The committee can't fix either the responsibility of maintaining confidentiality nor the flack you'll get for doing it, but you can improve both the approach to notifying the community of sanctions and your own maturity in responding to the inevitable criticisms — Preceding unsigned comment added by NE Ent (talk • contribs) 21:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)


Where did Vig and I had a fight for weeks about although we 100% agree about Wikipedia? Because of the total lack of transparency of office bans. And what happens here?

http://wikirev.org/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 5289#p5281

Exactly same. Proabivouac and The Devil's Advocate are fighting because of the total leak of clarity of that ban of Fram.

For years and years I am claiming high autism just like highly sensitive HSP doesn't belong in DSM and are brother and sister. And the best example of cooperation between high autism and HSP is Apple. Steven Jobs was the prototype of HSP and without high autism there had never, never been computers and internet.

The main problem is because HSP people are beloved and high autism people are seen as unpopular greeks. So a open, honest discussion is impossible.
Examples of HSP people, children of Aron I call them? Amy Winehouse, Robbie Williams, Steven jobs, Graaf Statler, Abd, Eric Barbour. Crow and Whallie not, they are just extreme intelligent. Dysk and TDA are something in between.

And as long we only throw pots of paint at each other and don't fix the system errors Wikipedia will not reach 2030.
And maybe fixing is a great way to liberate high autism people from there negative stigma so they get the most beautiful girls too ;)


(Just a observation of me, nothing scientific)

User avatar
CrowsNest
Sucks Maniac
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:50 am
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:47 am

Well, yes, it's all starting to crumble around them, now they are being shown the bankruptcy of their revolution.

It is fitting that now most people have departed the room and the bloodlust has subsidised, the conversation has finally turned to the Eric Corbett problem. As he has shown very well, the Wikipedia community can either be a respectful environment where everyone feels equal, or it can be a place where toxic shits like that become the canonical example of an unblockable, with the full complicity of the highest levels of their self-government, acting on the community expressed will to keep people like that around forever, no matter what, until in his case they turn into a grotesque self-parody and keep trying, and failing, to become a martyr to their warped cause of an elitist Wikipedia where even your entitlement to basic human dignity, has to be earned through the sweat of your brow.

As they discuss the implications of the dossier on Fram being handed to the community for some kind Arbitration proceeding, they are revealing things about their positions that have always shown them to be just plain wrong in this particular Great Matter. You can either be serious about tackling harassment on Wikipedia, or you can do stupid things like.....

-hold harassment cases in open court, blind to the risks of publicizing even anonymised evidence
-suggest what the victim of harassment did is of any consequence
-argue it is better for the person accused of harassment to be judged by a panel they trust, but the victims would not
-pretend Wikipedia dispute resolution is a court of law, or cares a whit about natural justice
-act like retaining the confidence of harassment victims to report it is not their utmost concern here

Whether they like it or not, the WMF cannot and would not handle a case of harassment any worse than a panel of elected Wikipedians would. If you genuinely suspected corruption or conspiracy, you wouldn't be wasting your time arguing that ArbCom is the answer, you would be using the press, the charity regulators or even the courts, to get redress for Fram, and any future victims.

Any outcome of this case, such as a shortening of the ban, that suggests the WMF mishandled the complaints and ArbCom has now rectified this error, will be far more easily explained by the fact the volunteer Wikipedians are still not taking harassment seriously, and either don't recognize it when they see it, or somehow think it can be justified, these two failings of course not being unrelated.

The formal recording of a no decision outcome regarding what to do about the advanced rights holders who directly put potential victims of harassment at further risk based on a partial understanding of the facts, already makes it abundantly clear that ArbCom do not take harassment seriously, and are more than happy to acquiesce to the demands of the mob.

If anything, the Foundation should be held to account for just handing the case to en.wiki ArbCom like that was a remotely justifiable decision, rather than say, setting up an independent review panel of trusted Wikipedians without any prior involvement. ArbCom cannot remotely be considered impartial - their own failures are directly relevant to the case and they are clearly not trusted by the complainants. It seems obvious Fram's preference that he be judged by ArbCom is because he thinks they will do something beyond stupid, like feel like they're bound by the prior precedent of the toxic community, to give him just a slap on the wrist.

User avatar
Graaf Statler
Side Troll
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm

Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:34 am

It is all the denying of the truth and cowardice. We will fix the true afterwards with secret courts and with gaslight we will find our way trough wikipedia. Every lie and blunder is turned in a paper success and indeed crumbles there safe bastion now. What was absolute not as safe as they thought. Section 230 is not the silver, no golden bulled appears now in the Abd trail.
You can't storm the European Parlement with pirate flags in your hand shouting we are no bots and demanding free source. It is all rubbish, it is a pie in the sky. You can't hide yourself behind a shitty ToU or a vereenigingsstructuur (Dutch Chapter) or charity when you are building in the backyard a complete wiki industry based on troll power. Wikipedia, powered by troll power is a perfect slogan for them.

Abd is right, it all about reality. Wikipedia is based on lies, lies and lies and that is a dammed bad base!

User avatar
CrowsNest
Sucks Maniac
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:50 am
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:47 am

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it seems like the Wikipediocracy folks needs shit explained to them again. These fucking people. And they claim to be lawyers and super villains and shit. :roll:

Before I get started, yes Vigilant, the WMF are indeed now focusing on environmental issues and editor retention, or more accurately, replacement. Have been for a while now. See what you miss when you succumb to Puff the Magic Dragon? You just step aside now. Stop scaring chicks. We got this. Yours, the cleverer and far more respectable side of the family. :lol:

--------

What's happened? T&S has sent a dossier to ArbCom detailing their investigation, with identifying information redacted.

Why? To get the whiny little bitches of the community to stop yelling at them and start yelling at who was really to blame - ArbCom - because surprise surprise, now they've seen it, the dossier is compelling to anyone with knowledge of policy and doesn't have cheese for brains (i.e., the minority of Arbitrators looking to open a case on Fram before it became moot)

What was the plan? Publicly announce ArbCom can review the ban based on the information provided, and wait a day while they realize any mere review exercise would be pointless because even with the redactions, they still can't tell anyone shit, least of all Fram.

Why? Precisely because all of the evidence against Fram is public, just confidentially reported. Ergo, you tell the pirrhanas anything remotely specific, maybe not even that, about the Foundation's case, and they will immediately know or be able to find out pretty quickly what the incidents were, and will automatically assume the people Fram was beating on, were the complainants. Bad on so many levels, but particularly because one of more complaints obviously came from third parties.

So what now? ArbCom are now going to do what I said they should have done a week ago - conduct an Arb Case against Fram, as if none of this shit had ever happened. Forget the dossier, forget the RATs, just declare it is open season on Fram, and let anyone who wants to register their disapproval to do so, in a full and public trial. Y'know, like a good old fashioned en.wiki Arb Case.

Why? Are they stoopid? Well, ArbCom know who pays the bills, and they know they need to be seen to be capable, otherwise they will have to accept further incursions from the professionals. They sure as shit know they lose their new found rebel credentials if they simply rubber stamp the dossier without giving the hounds anything chew on. They were dragging their feet claiming they didn't have all the information to do this, but that was just a lie. The dossier revealed it as such, containing no smoking guns, just regular old fashioned police work, and so left them nowhere to go.

Will it work? Probably. Given the blood lust, the community might be reluctant to present evidence against Fram, and most are too stupid to even know how to present a case. After all, if they could spot WP:HARASS violations and write them up in such a way Arbitrators couldn't ignore them, none of this shit would have ever happened. But I think enough of his victims will say fuck it, if this is my only chance, the mother fucker is going down. A few other good Samaritnas will want to be seen to do the right thing too, so as to keep those black helicopters grounded.

But just how badly is Fram going to get reamed by those he thought would be his saviours? Real bad. See, this is what I've been trying to tell you simple folk. ArbCom fucked up badly, and they know it. So in being gifted the chance to control the narrative, their best play here is to make this Case all about how it was the toxic community's fault, how Fram was doing this shit for years before ArbCom started getting their bells rung, and that only happened, not because the community finally realized ignoring him was a potential problem, but because Fram was starting to really annoy some of the Vested Administrators, who were having to field complaints from their corner boys about this un-allied Fram dude coming around fucking up their shit, saying dumb shit like he protected by policy. Fool. We may even get the Holy Grail, an admission that their inaction was because the hollowed out authority vaccuum that is en.wiki ArbCom of recent years, was afraid the community just wouldn't stand for it. The part left out being how certain Members put that case to the quorum a little too hard. Keep that shit on the down-lo, Committee Business, with scores to be settled much later, when nobody's looking.

------

I think what people need to understand, as the Arbitrators are now doing, is the WMF have never been even half as stupid as their critic have often claimed. Fram was specifically chosen as a target. Not for any bullshit conspiracy/corruption reasons, but because his case exposed the fatal flaws of en.wiki's self-governance methodology up to now.

Take a look at this piece of shit, a very representative example of the old school toxic culture that is being squarely aimed at. A beloved member of Wikipediocracy too, but you wouldn't expect anything less of that scum.
I didn't follow many of the encounters Fram had with others too closely, but my impression was he was correct much more often than not. Hence with maybe some of the more involved interactions, the antecedents have to be examined (i.e. other editors' behaviour) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The time for even daring to suggest that victims of harassment somehow brought it upon themselves, or otherwise deserved it, is over. Harassment is not policy enforcement. If you have WP:HARASSed, and done so after warnings, then by definition you forfeited any right to claim you had a good faith belief what you were doing was for the good of Wikipedia.

This is where that whole 'yeah, we know WP:CIV is still a policy, we just ignore it' attitude, comes back to bite you sorry sacks of shit right in the ass. I means fuuuuck, how many times have I got to spell it out? WP:HARASS is defined with reference to WP:CIV. So you dumb fucks have essentially been admitting you don't take harassment seriously for years to anyone paying attention to your warped internal debates (as opposed to just the observable effects), you were just too stupid to realize it (or in rare cases, undermining CIV exactly for those reasons).

This was never really about Fram, this was about sending a message, clearing out the dead wood. And it is working.......
I trust ArbCom enough to support their judgment in the Fram case whichever way they decide, I will not be asking for my admin bit back - and that will not be a reflection on the Fram result, or on ArbCom in any way. It's because we are going through a change in the way the various bodies work and communicate, there are going to be changes made in the way we handle aggressive behaviour, there's a new "Universal code of conduct" in the pipeline, and the old regime under which I ran for admin is being replaced/upgraded/whatever. So I'm going to sit back and see how it pans out before I can decide whether I want to be an admin under the evolving new regime, and if I decide I want to, I'll need to ask the community if they want me to do so too. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
With these assholes out the way, the Committee can move on to ironing out all the other wrinkles, such as their alarming policy which infers the accused gets to know the case against them even in private proceedings. This will be incompatible with will those whining about natural justice, but they will be looking elsewhere by then, and it will pass because to not correct it will mean it is incompatible with the very obvious fact Wikipedia doesn't do and never has done anything remotely like natural justice.

So yes, this is to be a show trial. The community asked for a show, so they will get a very public beheading. It is to echo through the realm, it's effects felt far and wide. Whether that implies the conviction will be unsafe, seems to depend on whether you already think Fram is innocent or guilty, and whether you ever really believed the community was sovereign.

Pro-tip: he guilty as hell. Always was. And no, no sovereignty. Never was any. The fact Fram is still banned By Order of the Foundation, even after all the sweet words and the apparent passing of his wretched bones into the custody of some dude named Randy, should really have clued people in on that score.

User avatar
Graaf Statler
Side Troll
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm

Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:50 am

CrowsNest wrote:I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it seems like the Wikipediocracy folks needs shit explained to them again. These fucking people. And they claim to be lawyers and super villains and shit. :roll:

Before I get started, yes Vigilant, the WMF are indeed now focusing on environmental issues and editor retention, or more accurately, replacement. Have been for a while now. See what you miss when you succumb to Puff the Magic Dragon? You just step aside now. Stop scaring chicks. We got this. Yours, the cleverer and far more respectable side of the family. :lol:


Someone posted this on WO. keep this in mind.

You wretches detestable on land and sea:
you who seek equality with lords are unworthy to live.
Give this message to your colleagues:
rustics you were, and rustics you are still;
you will remain in bondage, not as before, but incomparably harsher.
For as long as we live we will strive to suppress you,
and your misery will be an example in the eyes of posterity.
However, we will spare your lives if you remain faithful and loyal.
Choose now which course you want to follow.


Richard II's address to the peasants (1381) according to Thomas Walsingham

mendaliv wrote:Someone find the man a EU lawyer. It’s possible the compliance requirements for the request are rather technical (like DMCA; those takedown notices and counter-notices are easy to screw up if you don’t know what you’re doing).

Also notice to arbitrators reading this: Better get legal advice as to whether you may retaliate against Fram for pursuing information under GDPR.

You are a original boomerang laywer, mendaliv. Because the only right advice is wie geschoren wordt moet heel stil zitten. It's better to sit still while you are getting a shave.
Countersue's mister laywer, it is mentioned before. European countersue's.The Dutch chapter had instantly a notification from me back and run for there life. It was over immediately.
No European laywer shall advice you this and I am really getting curious about your qualifications because even with one year kindergarten I notice often you are telling complete legal crap mister mendaliv.

Welcome in Europe and have a nice holiday Katherine, you deserve it. Have fun and enjoy it.

User avatar
CrowsNest
Sucks Maniac
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:50 am
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:30 pm

Behold, the cowardice of the Arbitration Committee. Recall that in the matter of the "civil disobedience" of advanced rights holders, the Committee chose to offer no ruling, neither sanction, warning or clearing.

The issue of whether the rebel three can be considered to have resigned under a cloud (if not, they can get their rights back no questions asked), has been put to the community, and of course the answer was a resounding no, because why the fuck not? The usual bonkers application of IAR and general bullshit, like they have a clue (pro-tip: knowingly causing World War III invalidates an IAR defence). Just making it up as they go along. Self-government in action.

But who is also in that primal scream of turbo turds and absolute fucknuts? None other than the grand cuckoo herself, Opabina Regalis......
No. Well, as a wording nitpick, we can't really make a judgment about "future resigners". But the people who used their respective tools in the Fram situation were reacting to an exceptional circumstance, and IMO should be more than welcome to return to the status quo ante if they want. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Sounds like a big fat endorsement of civil disobedience as WP:IAR to me.

The cowardly piece of shit. Flies in the face of the outcome of the Motion she just endorsed days ago.

This is self-government on Wikipedia. Lies, corruption, cowardice and mob rule.

HTD.

User avatar
JuiceBeetle
Sucks Mod
Posts: 676
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:27 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Fram

Post by JuiceBeetle » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:42 pm

While the leading admins of enwiki were acting like the world's gonna end, a high-profile checkuser-admin abused his power, to block me for good, with practically zero chance to appeal.

He did so by blocking my main and 2 inactive alt accounts with the obviously false allegation of abusive use of multiple accounts. CheckUser tool is given only to a few, trusted admins. His rights can be revoked instantly for the breach of https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CheckUser_policy , yet the ArbCom just ignores this case. It's now at the cross-wiki Ombudsman Commission, which closed 2 cases out of 15 or so in 2018... :lol:

Evidence of abuse and full correspondence with ArbCom:
https://wikipedia-accountability.netlif ... -oc-1-req/

This is to show how blatant tool abuse is handled by "establish community processes". The German Wikipedia is much better prepared to handle such cases with 2 public community procedures, detailed in a blog post:
https://wikipedia-accountability.netlif ... arassment/

Enjoy.
#Bbbgate

User avatar
CrowsNest
Sucks Maniac
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:50 am
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:51 am

The People's Front of Judea is not happy with the Judean People's Front. :lol:
General comment, not directed at Jonathunder specifically, but if you've resigned your tools in protest, requesting them back a week later, while the coals are still hot, and the situation has not been resolved, with nothing but the most cursory possible concessions from the Foundation offered, that's just silly. Acting like your high ideological demands have been satisfied after a few days and no hard results, that just makes you look petty. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:22, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Oh you sad pricks. This entire thing has been beyond silly. Immature irresponsible children insisting they be trusted with serious, adult responsibilities? This freak specifically, has come across as a complete mental case. Trust him with anything? Not on your life.

User avatar
CrowsNest
Sucks Maniac
Posts: 4459
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:50 am
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fram

Post by CrowsNest » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:13 am

Vigilant wrote:How is it possible that ARBCOM will not examine the quality of the complainants' assertions of harassment.
If you have to ask, and all that.....

My best guess, they know the press is all over this shit, and they know that out there in the real world, it has never been acceptable to alter your perception of harassment based on what the victim did to supposedly cause or deserve it. What do you think this has been all about FFS? The Foundation is trying to detoxify the en.wiki community, a big part of which is necessarily stopping their dispute resolution systems resembling mob justice. Safe and respectful environment, remember? Not that you scum over in that pond of a forum have any appreciation of what that looks like.......

User avatar
Graaf Statler
Side Troll
Posts: 3996
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:20 pm

Re: Fram

Post by Graaf Statler » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:14 am

The main problem is all that complainants' assertions of harassment are complete bullshit arguments and Fram was acting like a gaping asshole. Plenty of hard evidences for that.
And Crow is right, the press simple does't buy Vigilant and Bart Legal crap as standing in a room with two smoking guns and a dead body and saying I bought those guns in a toy store. Because that is common practice on wikipedia and WO. They are all dirty cops who are trying to produce afterwards there evidences to make a strong case.

Detoxify the en.wiki community and the other community's is the only way to survive for WMF because if they don't do so they will be swallowed by the press and even worser, by courts.
And not only WMF but the brave Wikipedians too. Because I am really curios what is left of the big mouth of Vig in a courtroom, but I think not much. And I should absolute advice him to hire a other lawyer than mendaliv, because yes, he has knowledge of the legal basic principes, but for the rest it is all legal smoke and mirrors. And no, at the moments I have no concrete plans for a European law case. But read very careful, for the moment and thinks can change easily.

Post Reply