Gender Desk comments on Sucks

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Abd
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Gender Desk comments on Sucks

Post by Abd » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:30 pm

I saw a quote from this, and I have high respect for Gender Desk, so I went to the blog and found it, at the end of a post on abuse (which is all stuff I know well, have long experience with it (and having had what I'll call "relationship learning experiences" myself, including 12-step programs dealing with co-dependence, people in relationships with abusers, etc.)
Wikipedia: DTMFA?. The part about Sucks:
Sucks

I don’t pretend to have all the answers to Sucks’ moderation problems or any insight as to what kind of site they want, or how open they are to user-defined goals (and which users) or how lassiaz faire they want to be. But I will just say this much. If their problem is Kumioko binge-posting, why did they limit his ability to read the forum, instead of just limiting his ability to post.
Because the software is apparently limited, and a moderator cannot limit a user's posting unless (1) it's a new user, new users are on moderation, or (2) the moderator blocks the user. There was no deliberate limit of ability to read, and it should be noted that the limitation is the ability to read member-only forums, where flame wars are being moved.
Why did they dox a dormant account that was only being used to read the private forum.
It was not a "dormant account." A mod had just blocked Kumioko for repeated disregard and defiance of moderation limits, and an account, Perseus, was created. Kumioko was not aware that moderators can see the IP addresses of all posters, but the mod did not post that IP initially. It was only when Kumioko claimed to not understand the reference to his other account, that it was revealed that IP information showed clearly it was Kumioko. [Linking accounts is not "doxxing"] The concern was not the creation of another account, but lying about it. I am not sure if new accounts can read the member-only topics, but the effect of Kumioko not reading them would be that he would not be tempted to respond to what he sees as attacks on him, which would be salutary. However, he stated that the purpose of creating that account was to be able to read them, so probably he can. In other words, his access has not been cut off, but in various places he complains that he has.
Is there no mute function? I believe this also limits the ability to read old messages, so they have cut him off from backchanneling and privately messaging people, or trying to solve the problem offline, instead of playing to the stands.
Kumioko has access to many channels, he's active on the WPO Discord server. He has not been cut off from backchanneling. However, a new user cannot send PMs. Kumioko, while blocked, cannot read his old PMs or send them. He can directly communicate with at least one of the "psyops" -- administrators -- and probably both. His complaints are designed to solicit sympathy, when Kumioko has the full power to resolve the situation, but refuses to do so. I know his history and communicated extensively with him before he was globally banned by the community and then Office-banned. He is repeating it. On Sucks, Kumioko was being viciously attacked, but did not know how to allow others to handle it. Instead, he believed that, if attacked, he *must* defend himself. In his world, he has no choice, he's a reactive machine. I offered to review anything he wrote and post it or forward it *if* I was willing to take responsibility. Which would depend on what he wrote, of course. He behaves as if he has no choices, and he's been abused, complaining endlessly that nobody will help. When I have pointed out how vicious the attacks on him were, and supported the moderator in restricting that other person, the other person also complained bitterly at being restricted. However, he did not flood the forum with complaints, whereas Kumioko did.

I am sure of this: if Kumioko decided to cooperate with moderation, instead of to fight and attack it, and if he agreed to not post anything with the Kumioko account without moderator permission (pending a shift), I'm sure that he'd be unblocked, which would give him access to PM for legitimate purpose.

Further, I'm sure that if he asked for it, the moderator would move any Perseus post to the Kumioko record. That's easy. But Kumioko, in the only post from Perseus after it was IDd, said that he refuses to use that account, except to make that one post refusing. This is like a child demanding that he get what he wants, the way that he wants it, and until he gets it, they will sulk and be unhappy, and it will be your fault. And a sane parent lets them sulk as long as they choose. It is not for nothing that I've raised seven children. You learn this stuff or you suffer, badly, especially when they become teenagers. Kumioko apparently did not learnto negotiate, to consider the needs of others and find mutually satisfactory solutions, or if he knows how (it might be situational), he's not using the skills.
So here is another lesson for dealing with forums. Have your own platform (WordPress is free), and your own channels of communication that are under your control and cannot be cut off in an emergency.
Yes. I have well-known email addresses, I have my own domain server, a blog and a wiki, and for large-audience writing, I have an active Quora account and can be messaged there. I have an active Reddit account. (And Kumioko could easily post to Reddit, but has not done so to my knowledge.)
IMHO they ought to reinstate the main Kumioko account, and put it under moderation, and only pass two comments a day, unless replying to a flame from another user.
This is effectively what they have done. The main account is not banned, merely blocked. Actually, it was massive replying to flames and blaming moderation for not stopping them that was Kumioko's extended complaint. Steps have been taken to stop the flaming of Kumioko, which was aggressive and vicious. But Kumioko has not learned the first thing about internet forum participation, which would be to ignore trolling, DNFTT, and it was indeed trolling, explicitly and admittedly designed to set him off. The stated motive was to demonstrate how dangerous it was to allow Kumioko to participate. And that troll is pissed off that he is also subject to restrictions. As to the demonstration, it worked, simply because Kumioko has inadequate self-restraint and patience, and ignores advice intended to support and empower him. It takes time to move a community, and Kumioko was demanding that his abuser be blocked. He did not trust the community, and still doesn't. So WTF?
It is extra effort, sure, but it is probably the only way to limit posts.
The moderator has been doing this the only way that is practical, and was willing to put in substantial extra effort, none of which was appreciated by Kumioko. Perhaps Gender Desk would volunteer to moderate on Sucks. I'd support it.
And I also think there is a big difference between an unsupported assertion and a lie, between calling someone a liar or asking them to support their statement. Sometimes something is obvious to the person posting it, and they have never had any reason to doubt it in the past, until someone else questions it. There are times when AGF should be thrown out the window, but I don’t think this is one of them, Kumioko and Crow are both acting in good faith, the moderator as well. Give them some space to make mistakes, and arrive at a consensus, or a way to disagree without being disagreeable.
The principle is correct, but it has come out in extensive discussion that Kumioko is not acting in good faith. He's playing old games. I never throw AGF out the window. But "good faith" has levels of meaning. The most serious thing that Kumioko did was to lie about that account. It was completely unnecessary. Nobody was going to block him for sock puppetry. Then, that the account was created gave a means for the moderator to moderate his posts. There is then a suggestion that Sucks needs more moderators. It has some interesting ones, but they are all inactive.
It may very well be that even after all reasonable accommodations are tried, that one or both parties just dig in their heels and remain obstinate. But you can cross that bridge when you come to it. That is not an excuse for not making reasonable accommodations, or responding to concerns about abuse. Surely any criticisms can be expressed in a non-abusive form.
Yes. But it takes some discipline. Both parties (Kumioko and CrowsNest) are verbally defiant, both complain that their posts are being moved to the private forum when they stray from Wikipedia criticism to private flame wars, but only Kumioko actually floods, actually does, by action, defy moderation. He's being treated with considerable patience. We actually want him to be able to participate, because he has high experience, I've written that he could be very useful. But he's playing his own game, and that game allows him to be deceptive if he feels like it. And that is exactly what CrowsNest was claiming. So CrowsNest believes he did a noble thing. I strongly disagree, and hope that the restrictions on CrowsNest will be enforced, evenly. Both of them have access to Reddit, if they don't want restrictions. Reddit is quirky, to be sure. But it is available, easily.
Since they are now talking about making Abd a moderator on Sucks, I would also point out that Abd was a moderator at Wil Sinclair’s Off-Wiki forum. Maybe they should ask around about what Abd did to the other mods at Off-Wiki, if there are any still around who survived the experience.
Sorry, Gender Desk, but this was sloppy. Off-Wiki was a MediaWiki wiki, and I was made an administrator. There were no moderators, and when I was an admin, I was the only one besides Wil. So I did nothing to "other mods." I took one very moderate admin action and Wil panicked and removed the bit. Wil later shut that wiki down when he was unable to handle the stress, and he was under massive attack from Vigilant and others. He did not know how to delegate authority and then moderate it if necessary. He was terrified, he had some serious personal issues. It was a noble effort, and could have succeeded if he had been able to develop some detachment. He apparently didn't. Tragic, my view.

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Re: Gender Desk comments on Sucks

Post by Carrite » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:39 pm

Linking accounts is not "doxxing"


Some people have a great deal of trouble grasping this point, I have learned...

Perhaps Gender Desk would volunteer to moderate on Sucks. I'd support it.


You're kidding, right? GS isn't gonna give up her IP number to other moderators, lest they use it to engage in tech shenanigans (Hi, My Lord & Saviour and 1-2-3-4 I Declare Thumb War!) or use it to deduce a real life location and name.

Do I blame her?

Not at all.

Off-Wiki was a MediaWiki wiki, and I was made an administrator.


Off-Wiki was a shit-show and it's part of your resumé...

RfB

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Re: Gender Desk comments on Sucks

Post by Abd » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:19 pm

Carrite wrote:
Linking accounts is not "doxxing"

Some people have a great deal of trouble grasping this point, I have learned...
Obscure. Accounts are routinely linked by checkuser on wikis. Doxxing, unless necessary, is offensive and can be a clear invasion of privacy. Doxxing definition. Yes, some people are confused on it, but the distinction is well understood. An IP address is often considered private information, but I'm not sure it was publicly disclosed, and if I'm correct, it was a proxy server anyway. Kumioko is used to massive block evasion, I'm sure he has high experience on the point. He simply used the same IP for both accounts, not thinking that it could be seen.
Perhaps Gender Desk would volunteer to moderate on Sucks. I'd support it.


You're kidding, right? GS isn't gonna give up her IP number to other moderators, lest they use it to engage in tech shenanigans (Hi, My Lord & Saviour and 1-2-3-4 I Declare Thumb War!) or use it to deduce a real life location and name.
First of all, no I was not kidding. It's up to her if she would do it or not. All I wrote was that I'd support it. As to disclosing IP, she could use a proxy server. That's trivial.
Do I blame her?

Not at all.
Who imagines that she would be blamed for not volunteering? She could also make suggestions, and could be consulted. Basically, there are ways that she could communicate without disclosing her identity. A Reddit account and PM, for example. But it is entirely her choice, no blame either way.
Off-Wiki was a MediaWiki wiki, and I was made an administrator.


Off-Wiki was a shit-show and it's part of your resumé...

RfB
OffWiki was indeed a total mess. However, what I did there was mostly to admin for a couple of days, make a few comments, and I did not cause the "shit-show." As I recall, the Arb Worm was also active and commented extensively. Is that part of his resumé? Really, Carrite, you disappoint me with this, I expect more from you.

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Re: Gender Desk comments on Sucks

Post by Graaf Statler » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:31 pm

It is all so....... IQ 200+ Abd.
And have you ever thought about the possibility the Sucks guys don't give a single damm about you opinions about this board?

And what wonders me the most is, why do you want to change this place? I don't like the moderation of Jake on WO, the Discord system of moderation, but trying to changing it? No.
Why should I want that? And should they lishen to me? Again no.
You are shouting here against the wind on the beach Abd, a total wasting of time.

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Re: Gender Desk comments on Sucks

Post by CrowsNest » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:39 pm

FTR, my first comment about Kumioko, as we awaited his inevitable arrival, was not remotely viscous or even that provocative, just basically fair comment (including the first word).....
Hilarious. Kumioko has never stopped doing what he does over there. If they cared that much about it, he would have been banned (again) long ago. They left it until Vigilant predictably got annoyed, and let him take care of the problem. Voila, a supposedly voluntary retirement.

Dick move, all round.
My first comment to Kumioko, once had inevitably arrived, was harsh, but not vicious. And still fair comment.
For the record, don't [sarcastically] comment on the number of posts in a thread, and then proceed to say EXACTLY THE SAME THING someone else has already said in it.

It's doing dumb shit like that which makes people hate you.
Then, as now, it has stood the test of time. He came here, ignored everything said in the thread except to glory that he was so famous, then proceeded to tell his latest tale of woe, even though I had literally already interpreted events from that far off-Galaxy into human speak, as the board's official Kumi-whisperer. If he was normal, all he'd have needed to have said on arrival was 'what Crow said', and maybe just a small statement to clarify whether his current mood was sad/mad, so we could alert the board counsellor as to his specific needs.

He didn't do what a normal person does, he did what Kumioko does (shocker!). So yes, I then applied the thumb screws.....
One of these days it will penetrate your skull. You're just too thick and too annoying to ever survive long term on any critic site. You don't have an original thought in your head, it's all either stolen from someone else, or is simply minor variations on the same old recycled victim narrative bullshit that literally everyone is tired of hearing, and didn't make much sense the first time around anyway.

So what's your plan now, to camp out here, still doing this dumb shit?

Because fair warning, I'm not a slow learner like Vigilant. I know your m.o. better than you know it yourself, and I'm gonna be on your ass from day one, keeping you honest.
......and so while I was harsh, maybe even "vicious" if you were raised in a respectable neighborhood, WAS I ACTUALLY WRONG?

My only error was predicting one day he might get it. He'll never get it.

He duly camped out here, still doing his dumb shit. Literally the same shit. His future here was still in his own hands at that point, I said what I did in full knowledge maybe nobody here would back me up, and it was seen that Juice decided to ignore my warnings, taking an incredibly long time to admit I was basically right and start attempting to react.

We've been over the distinction between what I did (a noble act of potential self-harm for the good of the forum) and what a troll would have done (just fuck with him to garner a reaction, any reaction, just for the lulz).

It was only after it became clear people weren't even doing me the basic courtesy of heeding my advice, or at least demonstrating they knew better, and only after Abd started to openly disrespect me like I'm just some kind of stupid fuck who doesn't know what a troll is, that I decided that yes, I'll wind him up and let him loose, as your due punishment. Still not technically trolling, because again this was not 'for the lulz', I knew what the reaction would be, hoping it would be a teachable moment. Results were....mixed.

A thousand posts later, with no discernable change in Kumioko and no workable proposals offered or been seen to work, here we are.

I'd do it all again, exactly the same way.

I can't lie, and aside from the more noble aims, it's actually pretty fun to torture Kumioko, and maybe I will go to Hell for it, but boy is it worth it. I do it for and on behalf of every single person who has ever been unfortunate enough to encounter his nonsense and make the initial mistake of believing he is normal, and that includes plenty of enemies of mine! It ultimately included Juice, as I knew it would.

What is he up to now? In a huff, according to Juice. Nope. He's simply stuck for something to say. Why? Because he finally got the message, and was told that if he had something to say, if it wasn't his usual bullshit, it would be posted here.

That is his value to a serious critic forum when denied his favourite activities, whining, spamming, and generic half-assed criticism as filler/cover. Zero bytes.

He's undoubtedly fuming. Real fucking mad even. And the people silly enough to want him around will have to endure it, and for that, well, I'm a tiny bit sorry. Not very sorry, because you can read this forum just like anyone else can. You know what he is.

DIDN'T I FUCKING TELL YOU WHAT HE IS?

So like I said, get me that mother-fucking Medal of Honour. Now!

:D

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Re: Gender Desk comments on Sucks

Post by badmachine » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:32 pm

Abd wrote:
Since they are now talking about making Abd a moderator on Sucks, I would also point out that Abd was a moderator at Wil Sinclair’s Off-Wiki forum. Maybe they should ask around about what Abd did to the other mods at Off-Wiki, if there are any still around who survived the experience.
Sorry, Gender Desk, but this was sloppy. Off-Wiki was a MediaWiki wiki, and I was made an administrator. There were no moderators, and when I was an admin, I was the only one besides Wil. So I did nothing to "other mods." I took one very moderate admin action and Wil panicked and removed the bit. Wil later shut that wiki down when he was unable to handle the stress, and he was under massive attack from Vigilant and others. He did not know how to delegate authority and then moderate it if necessary. He was terrified, he had some serious personal issues. It was a noble effort, and could have succeeded if he had been able to develop some detachment. He apparently didn't. Tragic, my view.


what the heck is she referring to here?

There were no moderators, and when I was an admin, I was the only one besides Wil. So I did nothing to “other mods.”…..[TLDR]….


*cough* Justin Credible. *cough*

Also, who convinced Sinclair to install Liquid Threads/Flow?…..

About doxxing: I am usually pretty laid back about socks, there are valid reasons to conceal IPs and valid reasons to use alternate names, both on Wikipedia and Gender Desk, especially when expressing controversial ideas. I would rather have the controversial ideas out there, and being discussed, than try to be some kind of purist and run my platform the same way as en.wiki. I have never given out IP information.

Besides which, if someone is being really annoying, even after I email them and stuff, my Evil Twin comes around and takes care of it.


Are we supposed to know who Justin Credible is/was, and if so, why?

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Re: Gender Desk comments on Sucks

Post by Abd » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:29 am

badmachine wrote:Are we supposed to know who Justin Credible is/was, and if so, why?
Justin Credible was made admin on offwiki after me, and was blocked by Wil without notice and with suppression of the log, same as me. Wil had no integrity, violated all the principles he had declared. I don't recall all the details, but I did write about it on beyondpolitics.org/w, a bit. I thought that wiki was dead, victim of a php upgrade and obsolete MediaWiki, but I found today that it was still up.

And I hated Liquid Threads (Flow). Disaster, it was. I certainly did not advocate it.

Wil Sinclair on the topic (and many more comments in that archive). I was, if anything, one of the victims of that error. It made the kind of analysis I do far more difficult.

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