Did the Wikipedians live up to what Larry Sanger hoped they would become?

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ChaosMeRee
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Did the Wikipedians live up to what Larry Sanger hoped they would become?

Post by ChaosMeRee » Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:19 am

The benefit of keeping a professional distance from Wikipedia notables like Larry Sanger, is that you can highlight things which make Wikipedia look bad, without that meaning you must think Larry is good.

Just a lesson there for Wikipediocracy, which has trod a very different path.

To wit, the making Wikipedia look bad.....

As everyone knows, Larry Sanger co-founded Wikipedia and was by all accounts their first general manager as it were. He drafted many of their rules and laid important groundwork such as establishing the culture of Wikipedia.

When he left in 2002, he posted a message on his Wikipedia user page, a love letter to the Wikipedians, a list of all the things he thought they had done well and should keep doing.
All the best to Wikipedia and Wikipedians. May you continue.....
Twenty years later, the list makes one hell of a good basis for a report card......
to be open and warmly welcoming, not insular,
I'm gonna say D plus. You can still technically just turn up and edit, as long as you pick an obscure topic nobody cares about. And of course, Wikipedians are famously hostile precisely because they are now very, very, insular.
to be focused singlemindedly on writing an encyclopedia, not on Usenet-style debate,
C minus. They talk a good game about their focus on the mission, but in reality, the Wikipedia community is second to none for its capacity to waste a trillion electrons on trifling matters. And I'm too young for Usenet, but if it was angry and pointless, then check.
to recognize and praise the best work, work that is detailed, factual, well-informed, and well-referenced,
That's an F. The Wikipedia community long ago abandoned the goal of getting every topic up to Featured standard where possible. Featured is Wikipedia speak for their best work, certified comprehensive, accurate and neutral. Truth be told, even the basics like ensuring every sentence on Wikipedia that would need an in line reference has one, has been rather neglected.
to work to understand what neutrality requires and why it is so essential to and good for this project,
D minus. They're publicly committed to neutrality for sure. But Larry has been the first to say that in his absence, the Wikipedians have grossly distorted the neutrality policy he gifted them. For years there was a lack of understanding that their perversion of Larry's NPOV meant Wikipedia was merely baking in the biases of the world and Wikipedia's editors. And now they understand it, their mitigation is woeful.
to treat your fellow productive, well-meaning members of Wikipedia with respect and good will,
U (ungraded). The Wikipedians essentially just skipped this class entirely.
to attract and honor good people who know a lot and can write about it well
F. Wikipedia is actively hostile to experts. That wasn't Larry's vision. And the community absolutely sucks at writing well, as studies have shown. Wikipedia was meant to be written as an entry level resource, avoiding jargon, taking readers on a journey of discovery, whereas it has actually been written in the style of a graduate textbook.
to show the door to trolls, vandals, and wiki-anarchists, who if permitted would waste your time and create a poisonous atmosphere here.
C minus. Very little success in dealing with the Vested Contributor problem. Studies have shown much of the poisonous atmosphere is down to a handful of editors who have been around long enough to know better.

No wonder Larry is so thoroughly disgusted with what Wikipedia has become, to the point he has completely disavowed it.

If Larry still felt able to post Wikipedia criticism on the Wikipedia criticism forum he once co-founded but was also taken over by the Wikipedians eventually, maybe you might have heard about this stuff years ago.

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Re: Did the Wikipedians live up to what Larry Sanger hoped they would become?

Post by ericbarbour » Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:02 am

ChaosMeRee wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:19 am
to be open and warmly welcoming, not insular,
I'm gonna say D plus. You can still technically just turn up and edit, as long as you pick an obscure topic nobody cares about. And of course, Wikipedians are famously hostile precisely because they are now very, very, insular.
Not merely insular. They are now a cult, with an absurd "leader" and seeekret handshakes and other silly crap that cults always have.
to be focused singlemindedly on writing an encyclopedia, not on Usenet-style debate,
C minus. They talk a good game about their focus on the mission, but in reality, the Wikipedia community is second to none for its capacity to waste a trillion electrons on trifling matters. And I'm too young for Usenet, but if it was angry and pointless, then check.
C-minus my ass. The insiders deserve an F precisely because they took the worst features of Usenet and built WP around them. And that happened partly because so damned many of them came to WP directly from Usenet squabbling. And partly because King Jimbo hisself ran the Objectivism Usenet group. He literally installed other Usenet trolls in WP's top positions.

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Re: Did the Wikipedians live up to what Larry Sanger hoped they would become?

Post by Lir » Sun Jan 07, 2024 1:41 pm

Larry was an idiot, just a really pedantic stick in the mud.

I knew him back in 2001, when we co-founded Wikipedia with Jimbo.

Larry thinks he is smarter and better than everyone. After all, he holds a doctorate, so he naturally values the expert over the rabble. Of course, I also hold a doctorate, which raises the question of whose doctorate is better? The only solution for Larry was to have me permabanned, because god forbid someone actually disagrees with him.

Larry's rules are just virtue signalling. There's nothing warm or friendly about the guy (just look at his picture), and when he was around on Wikipedia, he was the caustic admin running around harassing average users and threatening to ban anyone who disagreed with him. It's easy to write a list of rules and guidelines, like "Assume good faith" but it's neither brilliant nor effective. Actually implementing useful policies is far more difficult, and Wikipedia certainly has failed to do that.

Larry was never committed to a neutral POV. He only said he was. Like many narrow-minded people, he simply defined "neutral" as whatever he believed - which really doesn't eliminate bias at all. Wikipedia hasn't failed Larry's vision, it is his vision, a pseudo-intellectual cult of pedants who want to "win" more than they want to be right.

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Re: Did the Wikipedians live up to what Larry Sanger hoped they would become?

Post by Carrite » Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:57 pm

• to be open and warmly welcoming, not insular,

—C-minus. Talks the talk but does not walk the walk with respect of "don't bite the noobs"

• to be focused singlemindedly on writing an encyclopedia, not on Usenet-style debate,

—A-minus. Plenty of pedantic debate over style and policy, to be sure, but given the potential for endlessly sidetracking political debate, given the universal set of content, a very good job focusing on the encyclopedia rather than debating the news cycle

• to recognize and praise the best work, work that is detailed, factual, well-informed, and well-referenced,

—D-plus. The Good Article process is well-established, but it's pretty much a little social club for a circle of self-congratulatory fussbudgets rather than a vehicle for article improvement

• to work to understand what neutrality requires and why it is so essential to and good for this project,

—N/A. This is a propaganda statement by Sanger. In reality WP has long had a house POV based on science and objective reality — and this is all for the good. Taking both sides of an issue and dividing by 2 is neither essential nor a positive course.

• to treat your fellow productive, well-meaning members of Wikipedia with respect and good will,

—B-minus. Work in progress.

• to attract and honor good people who know a lot and can write about it well, and

—D. Good content writers are respected but WP has done a damned poor job recruiting and empowering serious people from academia.

• to show the door to trolls, vandals, and wiki-anarchists, who if permitted would waste your time and create a poisonous atmosphere here.

—A-minus. Work in progress. All in all, cleaner than any project of this size and scope could be reasonably expected to be.

t

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Re: Did the Wikipedians live up to what Larry Sanger hoped they would become?

Post by Bbb23sucks » Tue Jan 09, 2024 11:00 pm

Carrite wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:57 pm
• to be focused singlemindedly on writing an encyclopedia, not on Usenet-style debate,

—A-minus. Plenty of pedantic debate over style and policy, to be sure, but given the potential for endlessly sidetracking political debate, given the universal set of content, a very good job focusing on the encyclopedia rather than debating the news cycle
Really? Wikipedia is barely an "encyclopedia". I'd say "Usenet-style debate" is what Wikipedia primarily is.
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Re: Did the Wikipedians live up to what Larry Sanger hoped they would become?

Post by RetroidHooman » Wed Jan 10, 2024 1:39 am

Carrite wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:57 pm
• to be focused singlemindedly on writing an encyclopedia, not on Usenet-style debate,

—A-minus. Plenty of pedantic debate over style and policy, to be sure, but given the potential for endlessly sidetracking political debate, given the universal set of content, a very good job focusing on the encyclopedia rather than debating the news cycle
Those talk pages can get very usenet-debate-like when it intersects with politics.
Carrite wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:57 pm
• to work to understand what neutrality requires and why it is so essential to and good for this project,

—N/A. This is a propaganda statement by Sanger. In reality WP has long had a house POV based on science and objective reality — and this is all for the good. Taking both sides of an issue and dividing by 2 is neither essential nor a positive course.
Sanger obviously has his own biases he would in actuality want reflected, but that doesn't mean Wikipedia isn't a failure in this regard on any subject that isn't a hard science or math. Anything political contained naked propaganda and even falsehoods, enabled by biased admins, editors who managed to seize control of pages, and shamelessly biased standards for sources that slant toward very particular narratives. It's obfuscated by encyclopedic tone, but people editing Wikipedia to push propaganda are usually bad at even that.

Allowing multiple perspectives is absolutely essential to preventing bias because there is no such thing as an unbiased source, it is impossible, end of discussion. The only actual way to achieve something close that ideal is to provide variety and Wikipedia used to be somewhat better at that until it fell to typical forum rot with out-of-control authority figures imposing themselves and their worldview upon the site. This doesn't translate to placing flat earth or heliocentrism on the same level as the scientifically demonstrated reality, mind you.

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