Wikipedians are unable to establish any coherent definition for "incel"

[journo]

Whatever. Can we at least agree that WP, by letting Molly control this article, is producing word hamburger instead of "content"? They SHOULD have made a basic short item and LOCKED it to keep the manchildren (and their enemies) out. But no.

the tl;dr on my post at least is that the WP:RS use the term is primarily as an ambiguous pejorative, only pointed out by a Wikipedia veteran years the page was revived. RS has even further moved in this direction after most media getting a bit scared to attach it to a few forum owners or forums.

So a broadbrushing pejorative is *what* the word is in RS. A collection of people or subcultures is not primarily *what* the word is used as in RS, as User:Swinxy pointed out https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... 1195186758

It'd be like creating a page for [[karen]] and just listing people the media ever called a karen or groups who self-identified as such. 'Karen' is first and foremost intended as a flippant pejorative for an entitled woman before any meme subcultures or ideologies. While not a direct analogy, incel is used as a flippant pejorative for an entitled or misogynist man, before (and often without) any intent to identify or label subcultures or ideologies.

[journo]

The above is User:Edge3 on Wikipedia lying it's not WP:BLUE or WP:RS that Small directly promotes blackpill shit. It's a particularly psychopathic thing for User:Edge3 to contest because it's plainly obvious the blackpill is the reason they run their sites. It's not minor and no one who has researched the sites for than 10 minutes is confused about that. The RS goes into that in detail. Even a cursory glance of Galante and Small's decisions the entire life of the site show that.

The very first splash image on incels.is is covered in animated floating gifs of "blackpills", and that's just the front page. I distinctly remember when Small put that there.



But nevermind that, here's Small insisting on making pro-blackpill pages the "important pages" on the forum-linked wiki through sidebar links.



https://archive.is/5ebJK

The rules section of his forum, authored by him (and which includes his direct email contact) lists blackpill propaganda as one of six top resources for members.



Here is Small designing and then selling blackpill T-shirts and mugs. Small admitted to being this Reddit account on his KF where he admits to his name, was ID verified by KF administration, posted pictures of his own mail addressed to him, and who the BBC said was his KF account in a recent media report.


https://archive.is/Z8G2g

This stuff is in RS anyway, it's not even undue.

User:Edge3 making a moderation decision on WIkipedia to pretend those owners didn't consciously load their websites up with blackpill shit was ridiculous.

Wikipedians have no issue calling random shooters incel, but when it comes down to actually holding people in charge of forums responsible for blackpill ideology, they run as much interference as they possibly can. The suicide cult link was rejected at least 3 times for 2 straight years before Freedom4U finally broke that pattern.

[ericbarbour]

Here is Small selling blackpill T-shirts and mugs. Small admitted to being this Reddit account on his KF where he admits to his name, was ID verified by KF administration, posted pictures of his own mail addressed to him, and who the BBC said was his KF account in a recent media report.

That's hilarious. Wearing a shirt like that is like a KICK ME sign on the back--a display of self-abasement. Guaranteed not to get you laid.

Wikipedians have no issue calling random shooters incel, but when it comes down to actually holding people in charge of forums responsible for blackpill ideology, they run as much interference as they possibly can. The suicide cult link was rejected at least 3 times for 2 straight years before Freedom4U finally broke that pattern.

Not surprising--also would not be surprised if Small has personal friends deeply embedded in the "wiki cult". WP can go after Kiwi Farms, 8kun or Dramatica because those particular incels "aren't cooperative", or whatever stupid excuse there is. Never what you know but who you know.

[journo]

User:FeydHuxtable is now arguing with the dwindling [[incel]] page patrollers about the definition of "incel", making a few claims
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ince ... al_Slander
including that:

1. the "subculture" "incel" definition was a very minor definition in WP:RS at the time a few Wikipedians made it the Wikipedia definition. Got amplified into a moderately used definition due to citogenesis (he's not wrong). Though he's wrong it was ever a relatively popular definition, including now. It's most common usage (and meaning) is as a general pejorative for celibacy (regardless of ideology/subculture), which he is right about and the Wikipedia article only devotes a single sentence to.

Feyd's second claim is that

2. that Molly and crew's sentence in the lede of [[incel]], this:

"incels are characterized by deep resentment, hatred, hostility, sexual objectification, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex"

is

arguably the most expansive demonising sentence in the history of humanity FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

[ericbarbour]

User:FeydHuxtable is now arguing with the dwindling [[incel]] page patrollers about the definition of "incel", making a few claims
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ince ... al_Slander

Oh, we're supposed to take that nerd "seriously"? He has this on his userpage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Feyd ... tenCentral

[journo]

User:FeydHuxtable is now arguing with the dwindling [[incel]] page patrollers about the definition of "incel", making a few claims
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ince ... al_Slander

Oh, we're supposed to take that nerd "seriously"? He has this on his userpage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Feyd ... tenCentral

He's been floating aroud in that talk page and related ones for years but this is the first time he's declared Jihad on the article as a whole

[journo]

The only admin FeydHuxtable could get to take that article from Molly would be Acroterion, who once suggested Molly tone that article the fuck down and further establish an opposing viewpoint in the article, to no avail. But outside of that guy, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head.

Veterans who'd be *eager* to help Feyd include User:Valoem, User:Amin, and maybe User:small_jars with some coaxing. small_jars also contested major parts of Molly's definitions and framing, after which Molly made very minor adjustments.

[journo]

User:Writ_Keeper is now saying that "incel" doesn't mean "unwanted celibacy" to justify the article as it is written.

She's leaving out the authors of [[iincel]] as it is tried to keep their incel definition at [[involuntary celibacy]] a few years ago. In other words, they intended this "sexual slander" to be *at* [[involuntary celibacy]], ie "unwanted celibacy". So it's no wonder people go to [[incel]] and just see it as an attack on unwanted celibacy.

[journo]

The re-write [of incel on English Wikipedia] would be based partly on the collab between Austin & Swansea universities. I'm going to return to this page in a week's time. If I don't see a plurality of 3 admins approving the re-write proposal, I've going to leave this topic for at least another year. End of conversation. FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:12, 19 February 2024 (UTC

How would you possibly get 3 admins to help you with this when not a single admin has shown interest in this back when this was much easier to do? Also SURIC, out of Swansea, is tangential and arguably an indirect downstream product of a a weird incels.is whitewashing podcast. That's a bad suggestion.

If feyd is reading this (unlikely), the only mature route imho on this subject using the dry and non-sexist sexology literature on [[involuntary celibacy]], [[unwanted celibacy]], [[forced celibacy]], or whatever else variation for something outside the [[incel]] page. There are also many veterans on the record of supporting that. Also, don't think many admins would be opposed to that. Then you could try to AFD [[incel]] in favor of a more responsible and mature page, but that might be difficult.

[journo]

Not surprising--also would not be surprised if Small has personal friends deeply embedded in the "wiki cult". WP can go after Kiwi Farms, 8kun or Dramatica because those particular incels "aren't cooperative", or whatever stupid excuse there is. Never what you know but who you know.

A blackpill misogynist named "Jack" has his own Wikipedia page. The reason is because he was allegedly a spokesperson for a forum which is now deleted as non-notable. He is also friends with Small.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Richard_Peterson

Someone likely associated with Jack has been editing out NPR-sourced history of Jack distributing revenge porn, editing out a sourced statement where he says he is broadly against women's rights, editing out sourced references to hate speech of the forum he was a "spokesperson" of, adding unsourced whitewashing statements such as that his TV appearance was completely satire, manicuring his image, among other weird stuff on a page that has eyes on it from multiple Wikipedia veterans and admins.

Also, on a tangent,

Jack self-proclaims he had a working relationship with the FBI in 2019, https://archive.is/60htF. Although it's possible it ended on bad terms given he claims to have leaked a few texts from them, which they would not want.


And around the time Jack claims to have been an FBI informant, he was the most active staff of a forum called blackpilled.net

A former friend of Jack also told me Jack personally told him Jack got a laptop from the FBI.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Richard_Peterson


The title of the Wikipedia article isn't his real first or last name afaik. "Jack" or a friend also added some unsourced middle name to the title at will a long time ago.