"Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

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"Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by ericbarbour » Tue May 02, 2017 9:42 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... 2-27/Op-ed

He makes good points. The WMF has so much money now they don't know what to do with it.

Predictably, WMF employee Tilman Bayer and a few others showed up to snipe at him. No wonder this was the final issue of the Signpost.

For the record, Guy Macon is a prominent Linux software developer. And a blind fan of Wikipedia until recently. But he's far more famous for a long and stupid personal attack he posted on Linux newsgroups in 1997 than he is for anything else. Including his coding career.

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by ericbarbour » Tue May 02, 2017 9:55 pm

Even better! Brandon Harris showed up to claim that the editorial's title was "triggering someone". Hee hee hee.
I have been asked by a current employee of the WMF who wishes to remain anonymous that the title of this article be reconsidered. They are a cancer survivor, and I can understand why they might prefer not to be declared equivalent to the thing that almost killed them.

Aside from that, inflammatory, low-rent article titles like this only help serve the idea that the Signpost has continued its relentless trek towards irrelevance. Keepin' it classy, I see. --Jorm (talk) 18:19, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
And Forsyth listened to him. But the attempt failed. Gamaliel and that pathetic excuse for a politician Jonathan "WereSpiel" Cardy attempted their own takedowns and failed.

That's how Wikipedians maintain "control". Strawman arguments, backstabbing, lies, sockpuppetry, all those things Jimbo is so very fond of. In this op-ed, and especially in the comments below it, we have Wikipedia's deranged internal culture neatly summarized.

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by Flip Flopped » Wed May 03, 2017 3:15 am

I never made the connection to The Signpost's disappearance. I wonder if that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by ericbarbour » Wed May 03, 2017 4:13 am

Flip Flopped wrote:I never made the connection to The Signpost's disappearance. I wonder if that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

It's quite possible; and there's a good chance we will never know for certain. Especially with Forsyth involved. It would be most appropriate if the Signpost, which survived more than a decade of batshit insane Wikipedia history, was killed off by Pete Forsyth. A guy who openly edits Wikipedia for pay (and did so when he was employed by the WMF), stabbed Lila Tretikov in the back on a public mailing list, and continues to claim he helped found the Portland Tribune, a newspaper that has struggled to survive for many years. (Yes, the Wikipedia article was mostly written by Forsyth. Silly question!)

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by ericbarbour » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:38 pm

Guy Macon reposted his essay in his user area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_ ... has_Cancer

Posted on Ycombinator Hacker News (one of the most autistic/pedantic websites on earth) in May, when it attracted a LOT of comments and was more-or-less debated in a reasonable way. Quite a few people posted well-considered criticisms of how WP and the WMF operate.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14287235

It was reposted on Ycombinator today, and this time someone showed up to rant and attack.....
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15429067

"Sounds like cancer doesn't it"

Causes me to immediately stop listening and start doubting everything you said and claim, questioning your motive.

It is an emotional appeal. Which 1) insults my intelligence, thinking I'm stupid an unaware enough to fall for that. And one or more of the following 2) you're too stupid or poor at arguing that you don't know you're doing it 3) the facts don't support your side so you try to rile up the ignorant and gulliabl to win 4) you don't care about argument / have other motives like fame, clicks, distraction from other issues.
This "njharman" just HAS to be an anonymous Wikipedia insider. At this late date, only a WP powerholder would engage in raving personal attacks like this to protect the status quo.

This guy is UNQUESTIONABLY connected, he is Ori Livneh, former WMF software developer:
I worked at the Wikimedia Foundation from 2012 to 2016. The Foundation did fly me across the world several times, either to attend professional conferences like FOSDEM or (more commonly) to participate in events hosted by a local chapter, like a community hackathon. I never flew anything but coach. I can recall one occasion when a colleague was able to get a free upgrade by using his frequent flyer miles. I am not aware of the WMF ever paying for business class for one of its employees.

This sort of comment is really pernicious. If you bring up such an accusation, you should really be prepared to back it up.


Plus the Signpost is being updated again, although on a far less active basis than before.

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by Flip Flopped » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:18 am

They flew a guy around the world multiple times to participate in hackathons with donor dollars. Where are the results of the hackathons the donors subsidized?

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by Kumioko » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:39 pm

I think Guy did a pretty good job of documenting some of the problem and personally I think using the term Cancer is appropriate in this case. Just like organic cancer in people, problems in Wikipedia and at the WMF have been allowed to metastasize to other parts of the site and it all starts at the top, at the WMF. A few examples:

- Incompetence and complacency at the WMF is taken advantage of by people on the sites, especially admins and functionaries.
- Problematic and abusive conduct by admins and functionaries then trickles down to editors increasing the us and them mentality and contributing to the hostile workplace environment.
- WikiProjects turn into mobs and create walled gardens of articles that become toxic to anyone who isn't a member of the project. These mobs frequently target "non members" or other competing WikiProjects
- Editors gather into cliques supported by admins that follow the same cause making it difficult to deal with certain problematic editors because they are constantly protected by admins
- Nepotism at the WMF and favoring admins, functionaries and yes men for positions of power in the organizations creates a lopsided and biased system of policing problems among admins and editors. This ensures nothing will ever be done to change the admin us and them mentality.

Of course there are others as well, but this is my short list.
#BbbGate

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by Graaf Statler » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:23 pm

Kumioko wrote:I think Guy did a pretty good job of documenting some of the problem and personally I think using the term Cancer is appropriate in this case. Just like organic cancer in people, problems in Wikipedia and at the WMF have been allowed to metastasize to other parts of the site and it all starts at the top, at the WMF. A few examples:

- Incompetence and complacency at the WMF is taken advantage of by people on the sites, especially admins and functionaries.
- Problematic and abusive conduct by admins and functionaries then trickles down to editors increasing the us and them mentality and contributing to the hostile workplace environment.
- WikiProjects turn into mobs and create walled gardens of articles that become toxic to anyone who isn't a member of the project. These mobs frequently target "non members" or other competing WikiProjects
- Editors gather into cliques supported by admins that follow the same cause making it difficult to deal with certain problematic editors because they are constantly protected by admins
- Nepotism at the WMF and favoring admins, functionaries and yes men for positions of power in the organizations creates a lopsided and biased system of policing problems among admins and editors. This ensures nothing will ever be done to change the admin us and them mentality.

Of course there are others as well, but this is my short list.

Indeed, the term Cancer is appropriate. WP/WM-NL is for instance a metastasis, with all the features. And I see the metastasis growing day by day, and the desperate attempts of the wiki doctors to heal the patient with a troll aspirin. There situation is hopeless, they are sitting ducks for me with my daily Dutch wikinews and my analyses of there tremendous trolling on auggie's board. The metastasis is growing by the day and there whole project with all there fine trolls has changed in a comedy.
But, Kumioko, there is no way back, there is no alternatief. They have to troll on and on and on, because there is no alternative. It is what I call the Hotel California effect. And oh yeah, WMF knows what you write is true, And for sure they know that SanFanBan of me was one big lie of a few Wiki-NL trolls, but at that moment it seemed a good idea. And in this way they troll themself in to there digital grave they have dug themselves. And there is no way or alternative to stop this process, because at the moment they admit what is the true, there whole system collaps. And that must be very frustrated for them.

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by Kumioko » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:29 pm

I disagree there is nothing that can be done, however I do agree it won't because the WMF is incompetent. There is unfortunately no one thing that will fix the problems and any meaningful change will need to occur on multiple fronts and that is extraordinarily unlikely.

First the WMF would need to seriously look at the problems and WHY they are occurring rather than just trying to make new "tools" to deal with the results or make assumptions on what they want to change. When they do make these tools they need to do it right rather than the half-assed attempts they usually implement.

Then the WMF need to do a comprehensive review of the admins and functionaries and clean house. A few bad actors have huge impacts on the community and they need to be removed. Most of the admins are fine, but it is a core group of about 20 or so that need to be removed. When they see the WMF is dealing with them, the rest will fall into line. I cannot emphasize enough how much of an impact a few bad admins can have on the entire community. The WMF needs to start getting active in working with the community on realistic goal of creating a better editing atmosphere. The hands off approach they have been taking isn't working.
#BbbGate

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Re: "Wikipedia has cancer" by Guy Macon

Post by Graaf Statler » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:14 pm

That hard core group is the problem, and WMF protect them, even with SanFanBan's, because of that hands off approach in combination with there good faith mania. Better to have a wiki ruled by trolls than to intervene. That is one of the reasons they keep on giving money to total failed projects. Why? No idea.

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