Fram

[CrowsNest]

let's not go out of our way to post any more personal info about Laura Hale.

Panty Sniffers: NO!

Hey, look at this! No way dudes, look at this! Oooh, pink! Nooice.

All the authority of a wet paper bag.

[CrowsNest]

Absolute fucking lunatic......

What has been escalated? A WP:MOSTACTIVE has been unilaterally desysopped and banned, by faceless Foundation staff members, in an unprecedented move. The community is rebelling against WMF in an unprecedented move. An admin has overruled an Office Action in an unprecedented move. The WMF Office has wheel warred in an unprecedented move. A second admin has overturned the Office's wheel warring in an unprecedented move. The Chair, having directly intervened with a COI, has accused the community of malice and sexism, in an unprecedented move. And yet this is what you'd consider to be an "escalation? Really? ~Swarm~ {sting} 07:15, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I can see only one thing there that is actually unprecedented - a second admin setting office, and even that might have happened before.

Did the community decide, and well, we've had enough The Rambling Man, let's switch to the alternate!

TAG.

I'm not trying to be hysterical

Oh shit, you mean this is not you already at ELEVEN? There's mooaarr!?!?

Do Want.

[Graaf Statler]

Abd did what I didn't dear to do, he threw a hand grenade in the T&S hennery and I have to say, the result is amazing.
This fireworks I hadn't expect and I think this will burn for a long, long time.

Abd learned me a lot of lessons the past time, and one of his lessons was don't fear, the hardest path is most times the most easy.
And he is right. Instate of years of analyses he just threw one hand grenade through the chimney of WMF and see the result.....

[CrowsNest]

You can literally see the wires in his brain coming loose.....

The "bullying" narrative is horseshit. Bullying and harassment are serious issues, and if a long-term bully has run amok and the community has failed to deal with it in spite of multiple credible complaints, then I would be the first to defend the WMF stepping in. But attempting to create such a narrative as an explanation here is as pathetically comical and non-credible as the sexism narrative. There is no evidence whatsoever that Fram is a bully who the community powerless to stop. Nor has there even been any attempt to make such a case to either the community or to Arbcom. I'm a huge advocate for civility enforcement, but don't pretend that this is much-needed civility/harassment enforcement that was taken as a last resort. Fram, while imperfect, is certainly not an obvious target for such drastic enforcement, if good faith civility enforcement reforms were intended. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

This absolute loon would be more convincing if he could stick to one complaint.

The sexism narrative is clear - a bunch of angry men reacting to one of their own being censured, by targeting the women they think might have been responsible? These same me angry men soon forgot pretty quickly as the prime-fire burned in their veins, that AGK, or indeed anyone on the Committee, is also a potential suspect.

I mean, what is the actual complaint here? Nobody can seriously argue Fram is not a problem Admin, and if they do so they have to explain just what it is he meant when he said "I was steadily improving." Strange way to prove your innocence. The truth is, as he says, he simply objects to the process and judge. Why? Because there is, actually, a pile of evidence showing that the English Wikipedia community and its ArbCom have historically been pretty ambivalent over whether Fram's approach rises to the level of bullying and harassment, and it is clear that simply continuing to be aggressive and abusive despite warnings, is not enough to make any one do anything by way of forced course correction. As recently as January, ArbCom got as far as suggesting to itself that in just one example of how he conducted himself in a dispute, Fram had.....

unnecessarily personalised this dispute....assumed bad intent
...appears to have gotten carried away..... adopt a "them and us" attitude....regarding other users in a manner that is incompatible with a collegial environment.......The impression of neutrality became difficult to endorse......proceeded to take absolutely no prisoners with [The accused] or any user who got in the way.....

....all building to this unenviable conclusion......

The community does not condone this manner of interacting, and the hostility underpinning it seemed without excuse or explanation. .... This was an unhelpful distraction for a community that, at the best of times, can struggle to hold effective and focussed discussions about administrator conduct. AGK ■ 20:40, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Verdict? NOT PROVEN. At least, not all of it.

I've watched Fram for years. I know he's guilty as charged, he probably knows he's guilty as charged, and we both probably know he skated because he is a Vested Contributor and the community wants no part of enforcing policy as it is written, only as it has been eroded in practice, latterly with full complicity of Arbitrators who have been molded by the forces of the ballot box into their own image.

As for this idea there are others more deserving of a ban, the answer to that is always the same. Give them up. If you can name even ten Administrators worse than Fram (with a cut off of being at least 10% as active as he is), we'll even let him walk free. You might have a few questions to answer, but hey, those who want to be Martyred, can be Martyred.

This was as much about sending a message as it was acting on the complaints. You people should have thought very carefully about how you responded. The assumption the WMF were hoping there would be no reaction to their out of the blue enforcement action, is clearly erroneous. They wanted to know how you would react. You've certainly not failed to live down to expectations.

Almost tragic that this loon genuinely tried to argue Jimmy is his inspiration. This guy?

Don't wheel war - it isn't going to be helpful in achieving the goals you want, and could actually make it harder

Do express your opinions clearly and firmly and factually, with kindness - it's the best way to get your point across

Remember that there is no emergency here - the phrase "important but not urgent" fits very well - getting this right and fixing this situation is incredibly important, but it doesn't have to happen in 4 hours (and it also, of course, shouldn't take months)

I applaud those who have kept separate in their minds and words the separate issues here. The issue of Fram's behavior and whether desysopping and/or some form of block are appropriate is separate from the "constitutional issue" of process and procedure. Conflating the two would, I fear, only serve to raise emotions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

That guy is clearly not your guy, and probably never was. As you've said many times, Floquenbeam and Bishonen are your people.

So when the time comes, own it.

[Graaf Statler]

Of course I don't know the situation of the English Wikipedia, but I know where Fram came from. And this is my perspective. I think Fram is a good guy and was in the same position as I was. Because, around 2010 the project looked, at least from outside, hopeful.
There was a lot wrong, but there where also users with a interesting vision and to understand Wikipedia from inside needs a lot of study. And my impression is Fram stared, just like
me, slowly started in that time to understand what was going on inside and special with the Wikidata-, gender- and Romaine gang.
And seen the latest revival of the wiki pirate mouvement is my theory they tried to get ride of hem. The pirate flags where again back, Romaine 60 K grants, Wikidate is HOT.

And because I am SanFanBanned because I was against this practises by T&S I think he is that too.

[Graaf Statler]

I'd like to remind everyone that it is my long established view that all bans are appealable to me. I seldom intervene, even if I have some minor disagreement with a ban, because no major constitutional issues or errors are at stake. It is too early to know what is going on in this particular case, but please if anyone is planning to "fall on their sword" for principle, let it be me. But, I really don't think that will be necessary here. The WMF staff are diligent, thoughtful, and hard working. If an error has been made, I'm sure they will revert and work out procedures to make sure it didn't happen again. If the ban was justified, I'm sure they will find a way to make it clear to - at a minimum, if privacy issues play a role, to me, to the board, and to the Arbitration Committee. Therefore, dramatic action would not be helpful at the present time.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales|talk]]) 14:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

No, jimmy, you are just like any isolated leader, you don't check anything out. You only listen to your lackeys what they have to say, and than you from your opinion.
Applying by you should be complete useless as long you are surrounded by liars, POV pushers and gender idiots.

But go ahead, hoist the pirate flags again, spoil the donor money as much as you can, and see where you and up. (Good for the European car industry by the way, special the Swedish.)
I tell you where you end up, Jimmy. In the trash can of the history side a side with John R. Brinkley. And that will be your faith, Jimmy.

And never, never say I didn't tried to warn you, but you didn't want to listen jimmy, and still not. That is fine for me Jimmy, because I like this place together with Crow, Steln, Eric, Abd and Bad and my other friends here beside the way out of your dirty stinking rabbit hole. Yes, I really do.

[CrowsNest]

The message seems to have had the intended effect. Look who is now on board with people following the BASIC STANDARD THEY SHOULD BE DOING ALL THE TIME.....

One important point: I think most people who follow arbcom know that I'm not exactly the civility warrior type. So I am serious when I say that in this particular request, in any resulting case or other followup, and ideally in discussions of this issue across the project, please be extra civil. Even if your temper is frayed, even if you're sure you're right, even if the other person was rude, etc etc etc. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:03, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

It was never acceptable, according to WP:CIVIL, to be an asshole because you were angry, thought you were correct or were responding in kind. Who is the person at the top of the tree who has for years given the impression it was OK?

She knows what time it is. The WMF is draining the swamp.

Too late to change your spots now.

Back-tracking to save your own skin now though, that certainly fits her character. Got more respect for those who choose to be assholes and are indeed now telling the WMF to go fuck themselves repeatedly, because that's what their inner asshole wants them to do.

[CrowsNest]

The rebels aren't going to win this one, at all. They will be lucky to come out the other side with the status quo ante.

This is why.......

If [the WMF] aren't able to make a believable assertion that makes it clear that they didn't let a board member's girlfriend tell them what to do then heads need to roll, starting at the top.

You don't make the mistake of allowing people as stupid as this think they are your equal. You stomp on them, hard.

The only mistake the WMF made, if they made one at all, is not appreciating just how deep the rot runs in the en.wiki community, where people like this guy, are Administrators, and will be for as long as they want. He could say this on Wikipedia and not remotely fear a block. Most or their loudest and most aggressive Administrators wouldn't even be able to tell you which policy it violates, much less explain in simple terms why it is just a very idiotic comment on so many levels, not least common sense and decency. They would probably just pat them on the back and agree. Doing a Cullen, I call it.

Time to start cleaning house. Time to take back control. Time to correct the mistake of not making sure that the volunteers who build and maintain Wikipedia, are not complete fuckwits. Everyone can edit, just not everyone should. They say this all the time, they just were never smart enough to realize it applies to them.

If this were a n00b saying this, a silly child with less than a year under their belt, then fine, take them aside, give them guidance and wisdom, and hope you don't have to eventually block them if they never get it. But once you let someone rise to the level of this guy still acting this way, there's nothing to be done. He is what he is, Not A Wikipedian. Just ban him and move on.

(the comment was just liked by Poetlister, so I rest my case)

[Graaf Statler]

To be clear, to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any direct requests by board members to line workers through middle management here. Certainly, James and I are speaking to the board and CEO, not attempting to intervene at that level at all. The board should only operate at the level of broad principles and through the top management, not detailed management of specific issues. Jimbo Wales 15:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, the board and the CEO are not willing to clean the house and stay out of it just like they stayed out of the Lomax law case.

[Graaf Statler]

Their key concern here will of course be to avoid upsetting donors.

This is of course the point. What if I trough a little atomic bomb behind the hand grenade of Abd in this Fram chaos through the WMF chimney? That's in the continental legal system very, very simple, much simpler that in the American jurisdiction and what Vig his fear is, that is clear.

What a mess, and Crow is right, everybody want the benefits and not the responsibility for this house of shit.



A rare pictures of the latest meeting of the T&S department, rumours tell us the man with the beard in front is Viligiant.
(Commons, Artaxerxes, CC-BY-SA-3.0