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Mendaliv wrote:
Honestly people should be kicking up a fuss in the press. Write letters to the editor. Write guest op-eds for papers that accept them. If you're in any professional or academic discipline, consider whether you can put out an essay on this or a related topic. Even, heaven forbid, write your representative. If you know people, talk to them about it.

Be professional, of course.
That's rather the issue, is it not. A professional would not write this up in a way that the mob wants, because the mob is wrong.

There is nothing they are demanding here, that they haven't happily put up with before. The difference? As much as they keep claiming this is about the principle, it's really about who was banned this time around. An established Administrator. Sure, they may not care in the sense they feel bad for Fram, more like they fear they could be next. Hence why Fram is posing the question to his former colleagues.

What makes me laugh about the prospect of any of you Muppets getting your sob story out there, is that it will probably be the WMF who manage to convince the world you're just a bunch of revolting idiot assholes who should not be listened to, and not us critics who could give the bird's eye view.

The WMF have thus far given you nothing but an apology for how they communicated their plans with you, and a promise to do better. Almost as if they knew what would go into the future press release, should it ever be needed......

Advantages of an organization being run by a PR monkey.


Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:09 am
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That puts things in a slightly different light for me, her being French. Not so much the claim that they were told they had no culture, but the claim that there was a cultural misunderstanding re: touching. While I'm sure there are differences in that regard between the French and the Belgians, it's not one a French person is going to be blithely unaware of or incapable of expecting. That makes me suspect either the touching was more an issue of pilling on than the core of the complaint.

And yes, I understand that many people have a serious aversion to being socially touched. I'm not saying a French person can't. Rather, my point is the claim that the complaint about touching concerns some touching that she might not have expected as a non-Belgian doesn't ring true in light of her being French. I've known people who can't handle being touched. They tend to deliberately avoid being put in touchy situations, and are keenly aware when their personal space is being narrowed. So my take-away is one of two things: Either the touching was more than was culturally appropriate (and therefore not simply excusable because the toucher might not have known about this particular person's aversion) or the touching was more tacked onto the other complaints which formed the meat of the T&E decision. Which is the truth, I have no idea, and as long as T&E runs the show behind closed doors, neither will we.

Going back to the grant fiasco, I would believe it if someone told me that the statement about Belgian culture was part of a ham-handed attempt to propose a joint WM France/WMBE project as an alternative to a grant that she wasn't prepared to green-light. Imagine someone saying "Listen, I can't authorize this as written, but you might consider reaching out to WM France. Our cultures are practically the same after all!" That said, doing that feels a lot like self-dealing, so I'm hopeful that's actually not the case.

What a bullshit and not knowing the European culture! We are very easy with socially touching. We kiss each other often, touch each other, that is complete different from America. The more to the south, the more social social touching, in south Europe even man kiss each other. This has nothing to with it, nothing.
Belgium is half French, half Dutch speaking and Romaine is Dutch speaking. Belgium has not a own Wikipedia. Romaine is just like Fram a Dutch Wikipedian, I don't even know if he speaks French.
Please gentlemen, leave Dutch-Belgium-French relations to us, the European.

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Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:54 am
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No, Romaine doesn't speak French and is a native Dutch speaker as you can see here. He is/was a Dutch chapter member until he grounded Trollomedia_BE.

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Deze gebruiker heeft het Nederlands als moedertaal.


https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker:Romaine

Please, I know Romaine as good as my own Brothers, where Romaine is is trolling. Romaine is just a troll, like all Dutch wikipedians, Drmies is no exeption.

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Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:26 am
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Fed up with explaining things to the community with their words, the WMF has got their crayons out.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... rkflow.png

Sick burn, imho.

:ugeek:


Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:58 am
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Doc James is blatantly ignoring requests for an update on the Board discussions of FramGate, not even to tell them there is nothing to update them with, which is all quite a damning indictment of English Wikipedia's supposed ability to govern itself.


Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:11 pm
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This is a interesting posting.

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I would absolutely say that's related. I think it goes very much toward showing that this is not an isolated mistake, but rather may be indicative of a substantially deeper problem within T&S and perhaps the entire WMF. Especially serious are the allegations that the WMF sanctioned someone at least in part because he stood close to people to compensate for a hearing impairment, and mistreated people who had autism. (The latter especially hits home; I'm autistic myself.) If those things are true, they violate not only the WMF's own stated policy of nondiscrimination, but very possibly the law. In the US, that would be the Americans with Disabilities Act and many concurrent state regulations, and I'm sure European countries have analogous regulations prohibiting discrimination on the basis of disability. The fact that Trust & Safety did not apparently see fit to investigate and follow up on these very serious concerns show that this may not be an isolated instance of misjudgment, but rather point to a serious problem with the leadership and culture of that team (and makes a mockery out of any idea of them attempting to mitigate potential legal problems). Anyone who has been in management anywhere knows very, very well that when someone claims discrimination, you damn well better take that seriously. Blowing off discrimination complaints can be a very, very costly mistake, and does not uphold the WMF's fiduciary duties to those who donate to it. Paying for a preventable discrimination lawsuit would not be a good use of donor funds, to say nothing of the PR. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:29, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


We have indeed something like that, but we don't consider describing a limitation absolute not as discrimination.
There is state help for people with a mental defect, there are special subsidised jobs for them, they get for free psychologic aid, they get special help in schools, we try as much as we can to help them. They get a state support around 1200 euro a month if they really can't work and an lot of benefits.

But we also recognise there limitations, and mention there limitations in a very open way. Just like we understand someone in a wheelchair is not suitable for the fire department, they get state support to find a job what them fits. Just like someone with a mental defect.

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Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:37 pm
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Double posting.

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Last edited by Graaf Statler on Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:38 pm
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CrowsNest wrote:
Fed up with explaining things to the community with their words, the WMF has got their crayons out.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... rkflow.png

Sick burn, imho.

:ugeek:


You're impressed by a bureaucratic flow chart?

RfB


Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:56 pm
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Thanks for stipulating this, Tim, I had already seen it on GD (And had missed in Crow's post.)

It seems to me Utter Fucking Bullshit, because if a SanFanBan really had passed this way for sure someone in this track had noticed that SanFanBan of me was total rubbish. A older gentleman of WQ-NL who had really never had done something harmful except owning a few LGB toy trains out of the 80's. Or at least someone in this traject had asked me a few questions. I was for a year not active on WP anymore and did about three constructive edits a day on WQ, a project with two or three users! And I was the one who was trolled out by arbcom and "The Dutch Cabal"
The true is in practice they invest nothing.

WMF is a tremendous mess, and T&S is shocking incompetent. And not only the Trolling&"Safety" department is complete incompetent I am afraid....

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Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:17 am
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Jake wrote:
I should probably take this opportunity to say, btw, that his insistence that the Jess Wade situation is analogous to the WMF's Laura Hale problem (at least as I described it here and later here) suggests an extremely myopic view of things.
Orly? Strong claim. Let's see what you got.....
Jake wrote:
Firstly, there's never been any suggestion that Dr. Wade is in any sort of special personal relationship with any WMF staffer, much less a board member.
That's your idea of similar? Moron. She has deep connections with WMF people, is the point. It's not my thing to speculate on her love life, that's more your people's interest, but I investigated enough to determine these relationships clearly extend beyond a shared love of Wikipedia, and manifest off-Wikipedia, in Twitter and real life.
Jake wrote:
Secondly, for nearly the entire time she's been writing WP articles, Dr. Wade (Jesswade88 (T-C-L)) has been doing exactly what the WMF has been telling the world they want people to do by writing articles about women on Wikipedia - almost exclusively, in fact.
What's your point? That is the whole fucking point - if she were writing about trains she would not get the protection she does, if/when someone like Fram goes after her.
Jake wrote:
And she's done it while being almost unfailingly polite and - amazingly - accepting of the Wikipedians' "helpful suggestions" on how to improve her writing.
Proveable false. She's a virtual mute, but when she does speak, she has dismissed them out of hand, claiming she is better than the average editor. And she has also responded to critics with broad brush accusations of sexism etc, is also the fucking point. Not polite in any sense of the word! Sure, once or twice she has made noises that might look like the way a model editor is supposed to react to her peers, but it is precisely because you are only seeing these in isolation, not appreciating the context or looking at what she does next, that you have been fooled by what were to a close observer, clearly platitudes that were simply coached out of her by her protectors, over private channels. Statements that she doesn't believe at all, she just felt she had to give at no real cost, so as to stop the "harassment" (or more likely, boost the case she is being "harassed").
Jake wrote:
Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, her writing has never really needed much improvement, if any.
Probably false. Unless you have incredibly low standards. Her writing has numerous problems, ranging from basic mistakes to high level cluelessness. She makes mistakes in both style and substance, and her typical article absolutely fails any test for neutrality and promotion, largely because they are not notable in the sense of those high level concepts. By her own admission, and what is abundantly clear when you read them, Wade is engaged in an industrial scale scraping of primary and closely dependent sources to compile a giant Wikipedia roladex of women and minority scientists who have (usually) done something noteworthy in the real sense, so that genuinely independent journalists and writers and historians can then produce the reliable secondary (and indeed tertiary!) materials that would eventually support a well rounded and genuinely value-adding Wikipedia biography of these people. To that end, she instantly blasts news of these crappy pages she creates out on Twitter before anyone else has even spell-checked them (a requirement for every single page she creates!), and then promptly ignores any and all feedback regarding what she has written, unless it furthers her aims (praise is of course readily accepted, even from people who clearly never even read the page in question, or know how to read a Wikipedia page at all). A clearer case of abusing Wikipedia for socio-political purposes, in open contempt of policy and the community, you will not find. As such, anyone more vexxed by Hale, is only demonstrating how screwy their priorities are.
Jake wrote:
Apparently there were some issues early on with her quoting sources too liberally or uploading copyright photos of people, but nothing (to my knowledge) that would have ever required someone to go in and rearrange the whole article or do a full rewrite.
Even if we assumed those were her only issues, which they aren't, a competent person would realize that absolutely means her articles need a complete do over. In light of her actual issues, that is absolutely what a serious quality control review would conclude. Such is the frequency of her factual errors, you literally cannot trust a word she writes, and it is the very fact the only skill she has apparently picked up is how to make an article look superficially like it is well sourced and well written in terms Wikipedia defines it, is what makes her doubly dangerous. Every single Wikipedia critic, regardless of whether they are intent on destroying or reforming the cult, would be shouting about Wade's successful con-trick of passing herself off as a competent editor, as a huge and obvious flaw in the product and community. In the Clarice Phelps case, she literally spawned a citogenisis incident. How is that even possible in 2019, by a supposedly competent editor who has created 600+ biographies? It happens because she has never been corrected in her erroneous belief she is an "above average" editor in that hugely responsible task, nor does she even appreciate what a low achievement that would be even if she were meeting that self-assessed standard.
Jake wrote:
All this leads to another key point, which is that - like it or not - on Wikipedia there are dozens, and maybe now hundreds, of people who are perfectly happy to follow along after women who are writing biographies of other women, either as a private pastime, as a well-publicized personal campaign, or as the result of edit-a-thons, and proofread them or otherwise fix them. There are not a lot of people on WP who are perfectly happy to clean up dozens of repetitive/redundant stubs about obscure regional sporting events that might not even exist anymore, especially if they're not well-written to begin with.
Actually no, if you knew what you were talking about, you'd appreciate most of Wade's errors don't get fixed at all, partly because of the subject matter, and partly the rate at which she is dumping them. She is working so fast I estimate it should take at least TEN competent people working every day of the week, to properly keep up with her. It is also the fact she is not writing about obscure people (as measured in their own fields) that makes what she does a problem. The day before Wade targets a women (or minority man), the top result for them is usually an Institution profile. A day after a Wade attack, it is Wikipedia, despite the fact the profile is always more factually correct and gives better context, because Wade really is that shit at writing Wikipedia biographies (minimum standard - be right and give context).
Jake wrote:
There's a big difference not only in what these two women have been doing, but in the perception of their activities among other WP users.
Not remotely. Both editors have faced criticism by some, and been protected by others, for pretty much the same reason - they're women editors writing about women's topics. And if you believed even half of your conspiracy theory regarding Hale, you would presumably be most interested in the rather obvious fact that of the tiny few people cleaning up after Wade, many seem to be deeply connected to the Wikipedia cult, far beyond being mere editors interested in quality control. And not only do they fix her mistakes, they do so in a way that hides from view the fact she is even making any. To a casual observer like a journalist, anyway.
Jake wrote:
So, what I'm saying here is that if you were a male admin on Wikipedia, pursuing some sort of Fram-like "hounding" of Dr. Jess Wade over her WP contributions, you'd not only be ignoring the WMF's PR strategy, you'd be ignoring WP policy, and frankly you'd almost have to be motivated by sexism over quality-control concerns.
What an utter load of shit. There is no WMF PR strategy much less a Wikipedia policy out there which says male Administrators cannot check the contributions of women editors, but you would be fooled into thinking there was if you listened to the complaints of editors like Wade (and according to you lot, Hale), and the editors who try to protect them from valid scrutiny. It is WMF and Wikipedia policy that people should not (must not) casually chuck around accusations of sexism without evidence, and if you knew shit about shit you would know Wade has accused her critics of sexism not only when there is no evidence she could use to back that up, there is plenty she could have found very easily that disproves it.
Jake wrote:
That isn't to say Mr. Fram doesn't have sexist motivations; he almost certainly does.
Eh? Not that I've seen. Not knowingly anyway. He can be accused of sexism in how he clearly doesn't seem to appreciate the typical Wikipedia approach to quality control disproportionately affects women, and he would probably vehemently reject any such accusation. But that is the whole fucking point too, because, and this is assuming a bucket load of good faith, this would be why editors like Wade are casually throwing around such accusations.
Jake wrote:
But in Ms. Hale's case, he clearly did have quality-control concerns too, which should have been obvious to everyone but seem to have been seriously misconstrued in Ms. Hale's favor by the WMF T&S staff.
If Fram had ever landed in Wade's orbit, he would have had plenty of quality control concerns about her editing. More than plenty given he has often considered one type of issue happening more than once, to be sufficient to launch a crusade. It would have taken him no time at all to diagnose the likely cause of it (negligent haste for the purposes of activism). Everything I have said above about Wade is borne out by the research in our thread on Jess Wade. The mere fact you wrote most of the garbage above tells you me you've never even bothered to read it.

--------

Here's the issue you panty sniffing fucktard's appear to have missed in your dismissal of the clear and obvious similarities between what Wade does and what you're claiming about Hale. Why did Fram never enter Wade's orbit? We know he doesn't give a damn for the WMF's strategic priorities in real terms, we know he has a hard-on for editors with copyright issues, source verification issues and notability issues, and we know he would be absolutely over-joyed to learn of an editor who is causing problems on an industrial scale, especially when those problems are clearly as much about their sloppy attitude and hasty editing as they about any lack of knowledge. Add to that the suspicion she is an activist intent on manipulating Wikipedia for her own ideological ends, and he would be on RED-A-FUCKING-LERT and would not rest until he had forced the community into going along with him in conducting a forensic examination of her entire editing history. And if we believe you, Fram also has a hard-on for harassing women.

And yet Wade's editing never did come under the gaze of Fram. Why is that?

A smart and diligent person, a truly independent critic not compromised by a need to pick and choose who is and is not the baddie in these tedious internal battles, would have spotted that for someone like Fram, whose desire to cock a snook at the WMF surely doesn't extend to knowingly offering his head to them on a plate (he clearly genuinely believes his tirade against ArbCom was not sufficiently grave to concern The Feds), might have been unwilling to pursue Wade precisely because of the similarities between her and Hale.

Fram is stubborn, not dumb. He would have surmised that after being given a secret Stay Away Order re. Hale, if he then wanted to pursue another women editor for pretty much the same reasons, one who would undoubtedly react to his advances with even more hysteria, and one who would be protected even more aggressively by a whole host of others, and they would all be quite happy to make the issue about Fram's penis (even though he maintains an official policy of neither confirming or denying he even has one), just as the target herself would, rather than the substantive and easily proven issues with the quality of her work, a shit storm would be the forseeable result.

As an aside, is Fram a man? It hardly matters. The point is, the way he acts is indistinguishable from how most Wikipedia editors conduct themselves, and most editors are men.

Fram would absolutely have appreciated that even though the most likely explanation for Wade's issues is a sloppy disregard for the things which he holds sacrosanct, Wikipedia policy, and a total delusion about her own competence in general (and yes, that is in part because of how certain editors closely aligned with the PR machine have protected her), he would surely come up against a wave of defenders who would insist, with no evidence to back it up whatsoever, and plenty that contradicts it, that Wade is a good faith editor who just needs time to improve. And that would be only the start of it, since they would obviously be calling for a razor sharped WP:BOOMERANG.

Now, we can easily surmise from their past record that Fram would have absolutely relished taking on the task of facing down and even perhaps defeating those ordinary editors and volunteer Administrators who would have rallied around to protect Wade, even the ones with pretty close ties to the WMF. He would have relished the thought of, for example, Gorilla Warfare or Rosiestep stepping into the breech. His claims to have improved eighteen months ago would not have stopped him gleefully engaging in battle under these conditions.

So I invite anyone to give me a better explanation for why Fram never went after Wade, than he was simply scared of what the WMF would do to him as a result, directly, by their own hand, exercising their executive authority and bypassing the community systems that have thus far let him conduct campaigns like that in the name of quality control, without much consequence. Especially given the likely reporter of such harassment would have either been Wade herself, or someone with much credibility in the community or otherwise much respected at WMF Towers.

Absent any evidence of an actual conspiracy, all the Wikipediocrats can claim is that T&S felt obliged to more strictly enforce the ToU for an editor with personal connections to the highest levels of the WMF, because the en.wiki community's own systems were evidently not providing relief commensurate with the goals and minimal standards of the WMF as a global movement looking to increase diversity in its users and reduce bias in its content. If you don't think the same would happen for Wade if she had been sucked into Fram's wood chipper, you really don't know shit about shit.

Or you are trying to deceive people, perhaps because you yourselves have a dog in this year's long WMF vs. the community fight. Wade is a literal poster girl for the woker elements of the movement, and she practically had a melt-down after receiving the pretty lightweight scrutiny of having 5 of her 600+ biographies put up for deletion. She literally went on Twitter and told a bold faced lie about how the evil Wikipedians were trying to delete every page she creates.

She literally brought down the media shitstorm on her critics in the Phelps debacle, then used that coverage in her defence. She's connected at the highest levels. She's not one for staying in the en.wiki designated lanes as far as Dispute Resolution goes. She's got Fae in her corner protecting her Free Speech On Twitter rights, Rosie and her WiR troops from the cult within the cult in her corner protecting her Fragile Female Psyche, and not many people holding her to account wrt basic policy compliance.

Despite violating numerous DS standards (gender and BLP), she clearly has ArbCom immunity that the ordinary scum can only dream of. Despite making an absolute mug out of Bishonen's favourite editor, Wade apparently even has immunity from the 'BishZilla. Ultimate Power. Certainly Fram destroying Powah, even if Wade herself continues to be blissfully ignorant of the charmed life she leads in wikiland.

If people still don't see the similarities between what has probably actually happened in terms of influencing Fram with regard to Wade, and what the chuckleheads can barely even stand up as a theory regarding what they think happened because he went after Hale, then they need medical attention. Or, ironically, they need to markedly re-asses their claimed competency in the field of Wikipedia analysis.
The_Adversary wrote:
Jesswade88 is a competent editor
But you also said Fram is an excellent Administrator? Instead of relying on your clearly faulty brain, infected as it is by Wikipediot dissease, why don't you read the fucking policies some time? Just as a basic competency of Administrators is not to do the things Fram does, most notably waging one man wars as if he were Teh Protector of Teh Wiki (hence why he had the good sense to at least promise to clean his act up eventually, if only for appearances sake), it is a basic competency of editors not to do what Wade does - notably to accuse critics of sexism when they notice she can't even get her text to match her sources, etc.

Shit, why am I even explaining this to you like you would see it? If you weren't such fucking born retard, you would be posting here and not Wikipediocracy, and you certainly wouldn't be a Wikipedian.

----------
In every respect that matters, certainly in terms of the dead hand influence of the WMF over how the supposedly independent, self-contained and sovereign en.wiki community, handles its business, there is no appreciable difference between what Hale is claimed to be by supposed critics, and what Wade unambiguously is. And if we're talking the capacity for direct influence, a hand on the scale, there really is no comparison; based on all publicly available information, Wade could achieve what Hale is alleged to have done using the same methods, and more so besides. If you think otherwise, well, have at it. I will happily listen to anyone who can demonstrate they know what the fuck they are talking about.

No one of this post the should be read as an invitation to Wikipediocracy to 'investigate' Wade the way they have 'investigated' Hale. That's not my thing, that is not what the rules of this site allow, and I will make anyone who comes here know it.

We're Evil People, to be sure, and the cult are right to fear us. But we have standards, both in who we target and how/why. The scum over the road, not so much, largely because they are of Wikipedia stock, and so they think and act the way the worst Wikipedians do. And they have a leader who is spineless and compromised, whether his claim of never having edited the website is true or not.

Jake has shown his true colors here. Far more of a Pure Breed (i.e separatist) Wikipedian in his abilities, analysis and motivations for such, than even Fram. I would say for shame, if I thought he were capable.

I fucking warned you, didn't I? Gave you every chance.

The Tyranny of Evil Men.

HTD.


Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:28 am
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