Fram

[Graaf Statler]

The COMMUNITY's are the ones who misinform WMF and make Wikipedia so extreem toxic, not WMF. WMF has extreem limited possibility's to interfere, the European judge has already said they are responsible, and what as Abd wins? They simple can't afford to let this go one!

They will be put on black in the EU, they will end up in front of a European court, the solutions the community gives them are rediciles. Take a hand full of pirates and storm the Europarlement with a pirate flag in your hand. Troll yourself in heaven. Troll anyone out you don't like and misuse your tools. Fill you pockets as much as you can, plenty of money. And this shitheads want the love and affection of WMF? And think WMF doesn't understand what they are doing and is willing to get all the shit at the end over themself? There shit?

Give me a break!

[CrowsNest]

What is this: -> <-

Me, thinking about all the things about how Wikipedia really works, that would come out if the community were stupid enough to escalate this issue to a PR battle. I mean, come on, how can you possibly explain WP:CIVIL being official policy, but it also being OK to regularly tell your fellow editors to fuck off? Both are supposedly the expressed will of the community, per WP:CONSENSUS, so the community must live in a fantasy world where words like "rude" have a different meaning to the rest of us.

We already know they think "fuck" is literally a commonly used word that is uttered all the time in a professional working environment. It is, if you lay bricks for a living. Even there, the industry is starting to change their image. The Wikipedia community wants to be the last bastion of the working man, with spit on the floor, and cum in the bathrooms. But they bridle at suggestions they are sexist pigdogs.

Dig deep enough, such as by visiting our little corner of history, and they will realize not even calling another editor a prat days before you nominate yourself to be an Administrator, is considered grounds to refuse the granting that role of 'higher standards'. Management approved dickwaddery, that. Even better, realizing the child making his application stomped his feet and spat his dummy at the suggestion he postpone his candidacy for six months or a year, so that promises to do better (from this eleven year veteran!) could be believed. Why? Because the process of applying for Admin is stressful for him. Awwww. It's shit like that which will open the public's eyes as to what a bunch of entitled pricks the community really is. No surprise that child is at the heart of the immature reaction to FramBan.

They are clueless when it comes to PR. The more times they scream that the WMF hasn't responded to their demands, as the list of gripes grows at a rate that is impossible to even read it you actually have a life or a job (not a problem for Wikipedians, clearly), let alone absorb and digest, just shows people what a bunch of petulant children they are.

The more they keep insisting their tinpot band of digital tramps should be responsible for EVERYTHING that goes on there, except for handling serious issues like child protection and threats of violence, it focuses everyone's mind that yes, every fucked up thing Wikipedia does really badly, the piss poor writing, the non-existent quality control, the abysmal customer service, the never answered talk pages, the paltry 0.1% finished figure, the backlogs on their backlogs even for serious stuff like copyright, it's all down to the volunteer shitheads who profess so much love and commitment to Wikipedia, who, when it comes down to it, are just either too stupid, too lazy, too disorganized or too plain selfish, to get shit done.

[CrowsNest]

The whole controversy in one exchange, Joe being a current member of ArbCom.....

I'm quoted in that Signpost article, and I'm not particularly positive on Fram. The first bombshell in that article is that Fram can immediately rattle off ten editors that likely felt harassed by him when given a conduct warning. The second is that multiple editors made reports to T&S and ArbCom over a duration of years without any community action being done. This upends the narrative of T&S doing some hasty, sneaky action and doing a complete end-run around community processes. The community processes abjectly failed here, and so in response to an apparent deluge of complaints, T&S eventually had no choice but to act. ~ Rob13Talk 09:49, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Rob, you were still on the committee in the run up to this, so you know full well that T&S never told us that they felt we were failing to deal with Fram. – Joe (talk) 09:59, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: And where did I say they did? They absolutely did communicate to us that Fram's behavior was the subject of an investigation and conduct warning. That included outlining the general types of behavior that were concerning them. When those same types of behavior independently showed up on our doorstep quite recently, I could not convince the Committee to take even the mildest of action. ~ Rob13Talk 10:14, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

The community processes abjectly failed here, and so in response to an apparent deluge of complaints, T&S eventually had no choice but to act – a very obvious alternative choice would be to ask us to do better before they waded in themselves. – Joe (talk) 10:17, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm afraid that there is little confidence that you as a representative body are willing to deal with these matters, especially where high profile, resident editors, the "big swinging dicks" of the project, are concerned. Leaky caldron (talk) 10:21, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

You have to admire the level of bullshit ArbCom is willing to serve up, to obscure their culpability. What kind of self-governing community would it be if they put up with the WMF emailing their ArbCom every time they thought they had dropped the ball in a Case?

This whole idea that ArbCom (or en.wiki in general) needs guidance from the WMF on what harassment is, either in the form of ultra-detailed guidelines, or worse, case by case feedback, blows apart their claims to be capable of autonomous self-government, competent in everything except the really scary stuff.

This HELP US narrative of course ignores the fact a non-trivial number of experienced editors, Administrators and Arbitrators had all been expressing severe doubts over Fram's conduct, and yet it isn't like he was ever definitively cleared for duty even by the most lax of Arbs like Opabina. They can't get their policies to reflect the variance in interpretation of their own views, so what the fuck use is it asking for others to help them?

[Graaf Statler]

mendaliv want now to start a a wiki-law firm but I don't think I will hire him.

Swear to god, I need to start gabbing with the lawyers on-wiki about getting an actual enwiki law firm going. People need representation before ArbCom, and in suing WMF. So much bullshit in this whole situation.

Nah, he has only the American common law perspective, not allround enough. And Vig as a expert? I don't know if that will be a success.

Anyway, Fram has not a single change, because WMF first warned him and has any right to ban him. And they didn't publish his (doxxed) username on the famous SanFanBan dead roll.
In general I don't understand why mendaliv is so dissatisfied. Abd is doing well till now, the continental legal system he doesn't know and I don't see WMF making any mistake. They have any right to do what they do. Till now the only questionable thing what WMF has done is publishing doxxed users names on that list.
But for the rest, no, I see no future for his wiki-law firm.

[CrowsNest]

Oh sweet Timmy.....

By golly, it would seem there is enough evidence available to start a (first) ArbCom case about Fram. Which, of course, has exactly nothing to do with WMF's procedural end run power play, the principle behind it, and the precedent it sets... Carrite (talk) 17:02, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

He was a named party in at least one Case. You obviously know what that means as far as ArbCom's procedural obligations go, as per several precedents.

This was a power play, sure, and the precedent set is that if the community keeps dropping balls, the WMF is just gonna keep recovering the fumble and spiking whatever jackass was being given a free pass.

[Graaf Statler]

What is WMF there right. Because in Europe they are already responsible and it seems section 230 is not complete waterproof. Eric gave a example and Abd is testing it. So they are complete right to intervene in this way. Because as Crow pointed out the community didn't do that.
And about me, I get a clearer view all the time. Whaledad will never, never let me down but has supported my SanFanBan and Woudloper too. And these two people will never do anything what should hurt me and the reason is never given. Maybe they did it to protect me, also a possibility. Voortschrijdend inzicht we call that, I was very glad I was banned, it was a relive.

[Graaf Statler]

Yeah, that's exactly the sort of situation I'm thinking about People who used their real names (or otherwise built up a reputation online) that gets shattered by something like a SanFranBan which is supposed to be reserved for serious things like child porn.

I don't think there'd be enough business for a full-time firm, it'd be more a loose assortment of attorneys in several states that associate with each other for these cases, just to ensure there's someone admitted in the right jurisdictions.

Great. In Holland deformation is under criminal law and I am already approached by the criminal investigation department of Den Haag police. And not only I. They told me I was no suspect so I don't need your service. But your service can be very useful for others I suppose in the future

[CrowsNest]

Oh Dear. Bishonen tried to throw shade at Katherine, and she threw it right back.....

Surely not just WP-etiquette, but common sense and common courtesy. Changing a phrase after somebody has complained about it wrongfoots the other person, in this case me, and makes them look a little crazy. ('What are they on about?') Bishonen | talk 04:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC).

Fair, entirely. I assumed that my acknowledgement and people's ability to check diffs would be sufficient. If anything, I'm more used to being on Meta, in which I've edited for meaning and clarity without previously raising concerns. I appreciate the pointers and explanation of etiquette here. Katherine (WMF) (talk) 04:48, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Could this finally be the battle we were all after?

QUEEN VERSUS EMPRESS.

The long awaited sequel to Bishonen vs. Jimmy. A much bigger stage, and for a much bigger stakes. But overall, the same total bitch doing the same damn thing for the same fucking reason. Someone just give her the damn keys to the place and be done with it, because she's never gonna stop.

-------

It's alright Vigilant, I got this, you just go back to whatever dumb shit you were doing that you think is insightful Wikipedia criticism. Something about the CEO needing to know the importance of local functions or customs?

I think she knows the real customs and functions. I think she has known for a while. How'd she know? Not from your bunch of slack-jawed nutsacks, that's for damn sure.

[Graaf Statler]

Well Katherine, show us your girl power, show us you don't need protection. Just kick them all down with one uppercut.
Yes, you can, Katherine!

[badmachine]

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@krmaher
Jun 28
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Replying to @kittle_fred @DuncanDucky and 3 others
Twitter is an ephemeral medium designed for throw-away comments, and you're also right. It was a dumb tweet.

where have i heard that before?

:I'm aware that this IRC exchange is being quoted, lately, in the context of an Arb Com case. I'm not that familiar with the case (nor do I feel I need to be), so I'll limit myself to a general comment about the exchange. This was an informal jokey exchange on IRC among people who know each other well: Ironholds, Kat and I have all known each other for years, and we are friendly. That's the context. A slightly broader point: IMO IRC is a medium that lends itself to, and is often used for, casual kibitzing -- it is essentially a social medium that provides a way for people to collapse physical distance and hang out together as though they were in the same room. In the same way that I don't think it would be useful to, years later, play back sections of a phone call or office water-cooler conversation, I also don't think it's useful to quote back sections of IRC dialogue. It's an ephemeral medium. Thanks [[User:Sue Gardner|Sue Gardner]] ([[User talk:Sue Gardner#top|talk]]) 16:31, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

maybe this could be the new WMF mission statement