Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by CrowsNest » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:03 pm

Iridescent also lining up to be a nominator. Tried to pretend he's neutral, but come on......
......Fram was warned about his conduct in 2018, and since then the issues that caused concern have been virtually non-existent......nobody has managed to find anything untoward other than a couple of grumpy comments.....The last significant conduct of any concern was more than a year ago—a lifetime in wiki-terms—and since then Fram has demonstrated consistently good judgment
.....that's called willful blindness.

It isn't an oversight, because Iridescent tries his very best to make it seem like his analysis is spot on, based on a deep and thorough knowledge of Fram's activities.

I wonder what Elisa.rolle thinks of this Administrator's analysis. Or Martinevans.

We know what Gorilla Warfare thinks, but it's noted that the calls for her to recuse soon disappeared when she revealed she personally had no problem with his wrongful block of her. But where was she for Elisa or Martin?

Lucky for Fram, for assorted reasons, his less powerful victim's voices never feature.

I almost want Fram to be successful, just for how hilarious it will be to be able to show the local governance is so broken, basic and obvious attempts to sell a pig in a poke poke, Iridescent's pure fantasy land testimony, somehow work.

These are not the Droids you are looking for......

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by CrowsNest » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:10 pm

He's going for it, probably launching tomorrow or Thursday.

I'm wondering if Fram hasn't been lulled into a false sense of security. For the last three months, he has been surrounded by people who mostly basically want to suck his dick or have his babies. Very few people who were quite openly critical of Fram before his ban have actually put their heads above the parapet in either the laughably misnamed 'community response' or the ArbCom review. No surprise, given both venues were quickly dominated by vicious people, with equally vicious friends at Wikipediocracy, who have made it clear there really is only one acceptable view, that Fram is innocent, or at the very least, he is guilty only of misdemeanors. Those pre-ban critics certainly weren't bitching about misdemeanors.

Now the whole distraction of Foundation interference is out of the way, and now we're back on familiar territory for the locals, those people who spoke up before the ban, given they can't have seen anything in Fram's performance that suggests he has changed, and won't be fooled by his second draft, will now speak up, given there is a real reason to do so. Skin in the game.

It's gonna be fun, as he and all his defenders watch as this whole host of names arrives to say the wrong thing, people they never once saw pipe up in three months. Fram's coaching team are all already assuming those people won't have followed the three months of drama, but they would have. They're stake-holders, only temporarily silent partners in Fram's journey.

He may not even have any idea why some people don't like him and have seemingly come out of the blue to say it in his RfA. But we're dealing with Wikipedia reality here. The guy who said this......
Case should be accepted but only to consider Fram's behaviour under WP:ADMINACCT which we can't deal with at ANi.
.....eighteen months ago, has had seventeen months to mature his sock, having been indeffed for a never coming back from that type offence. He may even vote multiple times, crossing the bridge to sockland rather relaxes your wiki morals, and he knows he won't be caught. Stab stab stab.

There's been a three month window when there hasn't really been much point for Fram's critics to speak out, as odd as that sounds given the matters at hand. But there really wasn't, it was only ever going to be comments from the sidelines. Floquenbeam totally acted unilaterally, the timeline alone exposing his denials as a sham. ArbCom certainly weren't writing their letter on behalf of the community, as they later realised. Commenting on the case as a critic? Pointless. A couple did speak during this window, and got absolutely battered!

But now, although many people still think this is going to be about expressing their rage against ArbCom or the Foundation, it is also now the time those critics can make themselves known again, their long held view being exclusively about the matter at hand. And no matter the risks, it's going to be worth it.

The beauty about RfA is, you can quite easily phone it in if you really are scared of retaliation, blend into the crowd. Takes no effort to simply oppose Fram because you have concerns about his judgement that his nom and answers don't reassure you over. Way easier than getting into the kind of detail the critics had to do in previous efforts to be heard, for their view to be factored into the consensus, to effect a definite outcome. You can do that in ban proposals too, but as Fram's critics know only too well, that chance was only ever a pipe dream.

Fram hasn't been through an RfA for twelve whole years, and it was a very different experience back then.

He certainly seems not to appreciate the critical differences between an ad hoc expression of rage where he was a distant and arguably tangential actor (community response), a relatively closed shop where he was intimately involved (Case), and a structured community slugfest where he'll have to be extremely careful in how he engages (RfA).....
I feel that I just had 3 months of editor/admin review already, where all my actions, attitudes, opinions, ... were discussed to death.
I don't think he truly knows the risks. He's such a highly strung person and is so vested in this process, that between this problem and the avalanche of questions, I think he could quite easily properly lose it in the first twenty four to forty eight hours.

Ah well, if he did know the risks, he might be able to say he had good judgement. 8-)

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by Graaf Statler » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:21 pm

I almost want Fram to be successful, just for how hilarious it will be to be able to show the local governance is so broken, basic and obvious attempts to sell a pig in a poke poke, Iridescent's pure fantasy land testimony, somehow work.

Of course I hope Fram is succesfull and Vig too!! The more lunatics with there hands on the buttons the better!
I am also delighted about the Dutch arbcom election! They are now electing the oldest fossils and total lunatics you can imagine. That is fantastic news!

I said it so often, they our officers and soldiers in the field and no one can improve them to destroy wikipedia in the most effective way! They're my heroes.

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by Carrite » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:32 pm

CrowsNest wrote:He's going for it, probably launching tomorrow or Thursday. * * *

Fram hasn't been through an RfA for twelve whole years, and it was a very different experience back then.

He certainly seems not to appreciate the critical differences between an ad hoc expression of rage where he was a distant and arguably tangential actor (community response), a relatively closed shop where he was intimately involved (Case), and a structured community slugfest where he'll have to be extremely careful in how he engages (RfA).....


It will be a close vote with a very high level of participation.

His rewritten opening statement increases his odds of passage greatly. The more he says, the worse it will go for him — we'll see if he's smart enough to STFU or whether he will be baited into trading punches. That will probably be the deciding factor in how this thing lands.

RfB

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by CrowsNest » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:01 pm

And we are live.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... hip/Fram_2

Five co-nominators - he really deserves to be opposed just for being that utterly desperate.

Predictably, his early rush of support shows no sign of respecting anyone else's views, or even any intelligent signs of life whatsoever.....(and I've left out the people simply saying OMFG he should never have been desysopped in the first place you're all mad, because if the Wikipedia community really did elect six insane people to ArbCom, they clearly got bigger problems than Fram).

What impresses me most about Fram is the willingness to point out problems in the editing of powerful and well-connected people.
He has never once even looked in the direction of Jess Wade.
I do actually have faith that Fram will accept the 5.3 gazillion units of feedback they've received over the last 3 months, and further adjust their way of interacting with people they think are in the wrong. If my faith is misplaced, I'll have no hesitation in seeking a legitimate ArbCom desysop for future unacceptable behavior
Um, hands up who trusts a word of what Floquenbeam says anymore? His faith is worthless, his past action of unbanning Fram when he didn't even have all the facts, because he didn't for a second believe Fram has done anything wrong, is the only yardstick by which you judge this clearly duplicitous comment.
Fram was a good admin previously
Sure. And a poor admin looks like what, exactly?
I see a passionate, knowledgeable and skilled editor that would be a net benefit as administrator.
Net benefit? Even if he keeps his nose clean for the next decade, he won't pay back the amount of wasted time and division his "skill" has ultimately been the cause of.
I see no reason for you to stay desysoped after all you've been through.
Lolwut?
It's time to reinstate this editor to the status quo that existed before everything went sideways.
The status quo was SilkTork being on the verge of filing an Arbitration Case himself given how obvious it was everyone including his own ArbCom colleagues kept wanting to pretend there wasn't even any smoke, let alone a fire, that needed investigating.
he watches the watchmen, which is a rare and valuable thing
Lolwut?
we're here to build an encyclopedia, not a social media site
Quel surprise, one of the few women who can stand being a Wikipedia Administrator thinks the rest of her sex just need to toughen the fuck up. You heard her, bitches! You'll take it from Fram, and you'll fucking well like it!
Secret trials and star-chamber justice in cases of alleged on-wiki misconduct are unacceptable and intolerable.
Check your own ArbCom policy, you dumb cunt. The next Case filed against Fram, assuming anyone would even bother, will feature private evidence. That is simply a fact, because what he does to people, doesn't deserve to be rewarded by revictimizing his targets over and over in a public forum, in the sick name of justice.
I have not seen any evidence that Fram's behaviour has even fallen below anything significantly lower than the highest standards under admins.
Sadly yes, willful blindness is a disease that affects one in the Wikipedia-Americans.

It's flooding in now, far too much stupid to address individually.

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by JuiceBeetle » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:08 pm

All of wikipedia's troll mob flooding the gates of his RfA: 28 support votes within 1 hour.
Grounds for discounting these votes: obvious canvassing, wmf vs community referendum.
WPO thread is public!
Let's see some predictions. Here's one for example: it's all downhill from here.

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by Guido den Broeder » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:13 pm

I have not seen any evidence that Fram's behaviour has even fallen below anything significantly lower than the highest standards under admins.

To be fair, the highest admin standards on Wikipedia are at limbo level. There is no room to get significantly lower.

Carrite wrote:It will be a close vote with a very high level of participation.

Expect more bans both before and during the exercise, to tip the scale.

Graaf Statler wrote:Of course I hope Fram is succesfull and Vig too!! The more lunatics with there hands on the buttons the better!

Eventually, every community will get the administration that it deserves.

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by CrowsNest » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:20 pm

As predicted, no real big names in the early flood of support.

I'd be worried about that if I was Fram.

He might need to build up at least a lead of a 100 supports from these random goobers and obvious idiots in the first day, to overcome the six day drag effect of more weighty voices coming to the party after a period of deliberation.

He is definitely going to pay the price of being so stupid as to accept Fastily's nomination.....
Adminship is no big deal, so why not empower Fram to continue serving and do what he does best to the benefit of the community. -FASTILY 07:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
What does he do best, in the eyes of his supporters? All the things a rational person is asking him to stop doing. Stop treating Adminship as your personal license to make other people feel uncomfortable, embarrassed or ashamed. Stop acting like being right is the only thing that matters as regards the duties of an Administrator in a collaborative project like Wikipedia. Stop acting like the victim and seeing conspiracies whenever anyone highlights your shortcomings. Stop pretending that just because people aren't mentioning it as evidence of the absolutely terrible way you Administrate and the serious damage it cause, that blocks like that of Elisa.rolle never happened.

He has made some of those promises, but clearly they are false promises, because draft two is not the real Fram. Draft one, live until a few days ago, is the Fram standing for Admin right now.

Draft one is the sort of guy Fastily likes as an Administrator, because he has many of those qualities himself.

The people who like to wait a while before they vote, they're usually the people who can sniff this stuff out. All that remains is to see if the Wikipedia community is so far gone, so willing to be the architect of its own destruction, that it just won't be enough, especially given how many just don't want this to be about the central question - is Fram fit to be an Administrator? Yes or no.

Fram is not, never was, and pending really convincing proof via a long stint as an ordinary editor, never will be even close to what the book says is the ideal Administrator. Not the perfect one, just the ideal as in the average, the human trying to abide by the rules, not flagrantly ignore them. You either see it or you don't. You either accept a pattern of rudeness is a pattern of rudeness, and accept that is not remotely within the bounds of higher standards of civility for Administrators, or you don't. You would certainly appreciate that anything that remotely even having a whiff of harassment, is completely unacceptable, and should be apologized for immediately and without reservation.

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by JuiceBeetle » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:37 pm

Some quotes:
valereee wrote:Don’t abuse the tools by being a jerk admin.

That's the last sentence of a support vote, Ladies, and Gentleman! That's where wikipedia is at.
sparklism wrote:Even if I didn't think Fram was suitable for adminship at this time I'd support this RfA as a matter of principle

"Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point"

Question:
Cabayi wrote:4. I'm concerned by this comment - "Fram preferred the option of going to a RfA than having to make a pledge to ArbCom to abide by Admincond". Will you abide by WP:ADMINCOND and WP:5P4? Cabayi (talk) 12:00, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
A: Yes, I will follow WP:ADMINCOND and WP:5P4. Fram (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

That's extremely convincing.

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Re: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2

Post by JuiceBeetle » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:41 pm

CrowsNest wrote:As predicted, no real big names in the early flood of support.
I'd be worried about that if I was Fram.

Yep.
CrowsNest wrote:He is definitely going to pay the price of being so stupid as to accept Fastily's nomination.....
Adminship is no big deal, so why not empower Fram to continue serving and do what he does best to the benefit of the community. -FASTILY 07:14, 26 September 2019 (UTC)


Yes, "Adminship is no big deal", so why not desysop you fastly, right here, right now. To improve the encyclopedia, you know.

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